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Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

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Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#81

Post by franciscop »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #57
fleischhauf wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its still possible to do meetings (timewise) between europe and asia at for both acceptable hours though,societal pressure aside

It can be, but people have to be a bit flexible on both sides. The most extreme example I have is myself, in France, having calls with people in New Zealand. That's an 11-hour difference. Basically, we'd have them at 8 AM CEST, which is 7 PM NZDT. 8 AM is somewhat early by Paris standards (usual office day begins at 9 - 9:30, with many people coming in around 10) but it's still feasible. I don't know how the day is o…

But New Zealand is not Asia, all of Asia is a lot closer time-zone wise than NZ to Europe. E.g. depending on the DST, 4pm in Japan (the furthest east) is 9am in Spain (2nd furthest west), two totally compatible times. The problem comes when you try to make THAT compatible with the California as well, which we determined it's just not possible in my last company.

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#82

Post by shaoonb »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #57
fleischhauf wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its still possible to do meetings (timewise) between europe and asia at for both acceptable hours though,societal pressure aside

It can be, but people have to be a bit flexible on both sides. The most extreme example I have is myself, in France, having calls with people in New Zealand. That's an 11-hour difference. Basically, we'd have them at 8 AM CEST, which is 7 PM NZDT. 8 AM is somewhat early by Paris standards (usual office day begins at 9 - 9:30, with many people coming in around 10) but it's still feasible. I don't know how the day is o…

I've been on the other end of that (taking calls in NZ from Spain and the UK) and agree. From what I can tell, working hours culture is very much the same in New Zealand as it is in France. Those in Spain always seem to be working late to suit NZ schedules, but I don't know if that's a normal thing or just our company.

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#83

Post by codingdave »

> is it even realistic to have a 9-5 kind of structure

Yes, but it is worth nothing that is not the same question as to whether you can have a structured work day. I work in about 4 short shifts: A couple hours before my family wakes up, a few hours after kid get to school until our daily standup (which is at my lunch time due to time zones), a couple hours after lunch until kids get home, and a brief check-in before bed to see what my westernmost colleagues have done and review their PRs.

So I work 8 hours a day, structured, but spread over about 14 hours. And actually spend more time with my family than I would working "9-5" because I structure my times off when they are around.

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#84

Post by ctrwu2843 »

Nobody is gonna give you work life balance.It's something you have to make for yourself by setting boundaries.

If those boundaries aren't compatible with your current employer find a different one.

On-call doesn't have to be a nightmare either but it does mean prioritising reliability over feature work, often a be a hard sell to "the business" as they likely care more about revenue over your lack of sleep. Again it comes down to boundaries and sternly refusing to accrue the types of technical debt that are likely to cause issues.

Ultimately, you draw power from being the person with the ability to create software. It's on you to leverage that to build the lifestyle that you desire.

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#85

Post by bamboozled »

Eezee wrote: post #50
bamboozled wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your attitude is unreasonable in some ways. With remote work, you can (I'm assuming) plan your day, work your hours that suits your team. This includes taking your kids to the park during daylight hours, then working from say 5pm - midnight. The right to disconnect feels more about letting people disconnect "after hours". But this depends on your hours.

How is having a structured workday where you consistently work the same 9 how window and expecting to spend your evenings with your partner/kids/friends unreasonable?

Honestly, if that's what you guys want, a 9-5. Go for it

For me working remotely isn't just about having my ass in a different geographical location, it's about flexibility. Both in my private and professional life.

I didn't say you can't spend time with your kids, but personally, working 8am-9am then 8pm-12pm doesn't sound so bad either. (for example). I find kids need to do homework and get to bed early so those times for me would work pretty well.

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#86

Post by jll29 »

Startup land is most likely to burn you out with its relentless 80+ weeks (but depends on the you live - there are cultural differences).

But you could work as a freelancer/contractor or be employed for a few years at a slower-paced show e.g. a gov agency. Once you get bored by it, and after you have had time to recover from burn out, and have had the chance to spend more time with the family, you can always change pace again.

I would not agree to any contract with a pager-duty clause, personally, apart way back when I worked as a paramedic.

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#87

Post by [deleted] »

piva00 wrote: post #75
bamboozled wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your attitude is unreasonable in some ways. With remote work, you can (I'm assuming) plan your day, work your hours that suits your team. This includes taking your kids to the park during daylight hours, then working from say 5pm - midnight. The right to disconnect feels more about letting people disconnect "after hours". But this depends on your hours.

The right to disconnect for me is when I don't have to care about work anymore for that day. Whenever I work some odd hours to have free time during the day this time is simply much less enjoyable. I know I will have to attend to work obligations while I'm supposedly on free time to enjoy daylight hours. This pressure is not something I can turn off at will. With remote work I appreciate having the option to use the…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#88

Post by bamboozled »

Rygian wrote: post #48
bamboozled wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your attitude is unreasonable in some ways. With remote work, you can (I'm assuming) plan your day, work your hours that suits your team. This includes taking your kids to the park during daylight hours, then working from say 5pm - midnight. The right to disconnect feels more about letting people disconnect "after hours". But this depends on your hours.

I fail to see what is unreasonable in my attitude, you give no explanation in your comment. My "team" is composed of around 700 people across Asia and Europe. My kids are in school during work hours. My 6pm—midnight slot is strictly private life and there is no reason for it to be otherwise. So, your last line contradicts the rest of your own comment.

Ok, that's all pretty subjective.

I said in another comment, If you were a police officer, pilot, truck driver, deep sea diver or in numerous other professions, you'd be expected to do some weird hours and have a lot of time away from home.

This is where I think people are being unreasonable. Remote work, we have it better than ever, no commutes, no time away from family, almost non-inconvenience but now, even a late night meeting is against "my time".

I think with remote work, the cost of walking 50 meters, sitting in a comfortable chair and dialing into a meeting from 11pm-12am is pretty inconsequential all things considered. You can probably have the meeting in your jammies on the couch.

I'm not 100% discounting that it's inconvenient, but I mean, relative to the things I've been through and others have to go through, it's minuscule in comparison.

Lastly, I think you're just lucky you work for a company who allows you to just say no to meeting with your peers in other time zones. Again, you might be lucky and everyone has a good crossover with you, but many don't have this luxury, and never meeting with your peers, at least where I work, means you're not part of the team and you're getting fired.

We rotate the difficult meetings in the group so we all feel some of the pain, but three is a bit of pain and I guess that's why it's called "a job" and why I'm part of a team.

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#89

Post by jll29 »

Rygian wrote: post #16

I work a strict 9am–6pm schedule from western Europe, and interact with both Asian and American colleagues. I simply decline all meetings that are outside of my work window, and it would probably be against the law for my management to expect me to do otherwise ("right to disconnect"). I do know, however, that some of my colleagues in Asian countries feel an non-official pressure to accept late-evening meetings so th…

I think cross TZ meetings should not recur in the same TZ.

Once way to make things more fair is to set up two or three bi- or three-weekly recurring meetings to cover all participants time zones. So everyone gets it to happen in their own TZ at least every other week or so.

I know the practice is often different, depending on where the company's headquarters are, but I encourage folks to spread the rotating TZ idea out of fairness and respect for colleagues elsewhere.

Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?

#90

Post by bamboozled »

piva00 wrote: post #75
bamboozled wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your attitude is unreasonable in some ways. With remote work, you can (I'm assuming) plan your day, work your hours that suits your team. This includes taking your kids to the park during daylight hours, then working from say 5pm - midnight. The right to disconnect feels more about letting people disconnect "after hours". But this depends on your hours.

The right to disconnect for me is when I don't have to care about work anymore for that day. Whenever I work some odd hours to have free time during the day this time is simply much less enjoyable. I know I will have to attend to work obligations while I'm supposedly on free time to enjoy daylight hours. This pressure is not something I can turn off at will. With remote work I appreciate having the option to use the…

I'm kind of the opposite, I enjoy doing things in the day and sitting on my butt at night.

So there you go, we're different.

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