I also work in Berlin and are making it a habit to go back to the office more. Yesterday was a specially good day because of some incentives our office was half full again. It was such an awesome change from working away on your own at home with perfect silence to a more buzzing and clicky workspace. I could speak to people about issues directly by simply nudging them and have answers right away (I dislike video calls and calls in general and in our team we generally try to solve problems on our own first). Both is not healthy yes but it was a great experience. Coming from a person that generally dislikes social contacts because these are very hard for me.
Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
81–90 of 830 posts
Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#82No post body was provided.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#83> As soon as a company's IT department is practically fully remote, why should they page a German wage for someone who is a face on a screen, when they can pay a fraction for that same face broadcasted from a few hundred kilometers further east or south? German is hardly used in business context here anyway and lower-wage countries within ±3 hours timezones abound. This has already happened and has resulted in unific…
If that is the case, why are dev salaries in, for example, Dublin so much higher than Berlin (€115,000 vs €86,000 if Levels.fyi is to be believed)? Both are EU capitals with excellent, well-educated workforces.
They are not "that" high (ok, maybe in total compensation but still)
It's for two main reasons:
- Because American companies have a better sense of what the employees are worth (especially FAANG competition)
- Because Dublin COL is crazy
But outside of FAANG those salaries are not that high
Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#84> And finally, I feel no one else is realizing that they are happily hacking away at the amazingly well-paid branch they're sitting on. As soon as a company's IT department is practically fully remote, why should they page a German wage for someone who is a face on a screen, when they can pay a fraction for that same face broadcasted from a few hundred kilometers further east or south? German is hardly used in busine…
Yes, they’ll pay the same. There’s no reason to think for most companies that that “same” will be the current Silicon Valley or even Western Europe rate.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#85I'm in Berlin (moved from Seattle). Want to commiserate over beer/coffee? If anybody else wants to join just reply :-)
Moved to Berlin (from Milan) just 2 weeks ago, would gladly join and have nice drink :)
Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#86[deleted]
Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#87If you wonder why an argument might be controversial, it can helpful to imagine how it would sound like in mirror world: Assume for a moment that working remotly and a flexible workday would have been always the default. And now some companies decide: Hey let's contractually enforce a 9 hour continuous workday where all our workers will be locked in a big ugly building that we build just for that purpose (Btw. at lea…
Disclaimer: I support fully remote work and will likely never be returning to office in my lifetime if I can help it.
Here I play devil's advocate. Even though it is a hypothetical world you've constructed, you still framed it from the perspective of this world.
I can do the same thing you did with a different bias.
Imagine a world where everyone is socially isolated, forced to work 8 hours a day from their living space where they're supposed to be able to retreat from work. They're not allowed to have social in-person contact with any of their peers, but they must login to show activity on their computer every 15 minutes or else be fired.
Then along comes the "office". An amazing centralized place where you can take frequent breaks to have social interaction with your peers. You no longer have to wait for everyone to join the Zoom call and turn on their cameras and ask "Can you see my screen?" — you all can just look at the same whiteboard in the same room! Need to get in touch with Bill? Just stroll over to his desk. No need to ping him and wait for a response. We'll even feed you for free, and you can play ping-pong on your breaks! You won't have to bother furnishing your home office with a standing desk and complicated technology setups. We handle all of that for you, and even have in-house IT staff to fix any issues that pop up.
It all doesn't sound so bad when you frame it differently (which is what the middle managers try to do). Again, I don't really believe these arguments, I'm just pointing out that the way you framed yours can easily be done by someone with a competing view.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
An elegant solution to this has already been proposed: go and share an office with like-minded people from the same or across different companies.
Actually something I am doing at the moment. It's definitely a huge improvement. Regardless, having a good brainstorming session in person and actually building a strong sense of community and shared responsibility with a team you're on is so much better in real-life than remote for me. Another thing is that finding an office space was really hard and we got extremely lucky. Try finding a payable office space in a ca…
Heh, finding office space in a capital city is much easier now.
But you're ignoring your own responses too, if office space in a CapCit was so expensive and impossible for you, what do you think a business is spending per year on it. You could have an office, or 5 more virtual employees.
Software companies having offices in big cities make as much sense as a manufacturing company having a production building downtown. Maybe it made sense in 1850s but doesn't make sense in the 2020s.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#89> As soon as a company's IT department is practically fully remote, why should they page a German wage for someone who is a face on a screen, when they can pay a fraction for that same face broadcasted from a few hundred kilometers further east or south? German is hardly used in business context here anyway and lower-wage countries within ±3 hours timezones abound. This has already happened and has resulted in unific…
If that is the case, why are dev salaries in, for example, Dublin so much higher than Berlin (€115,000 vs €86,000 if Levels.fyi is to be believed)? Both are EU capitals with excellent, well-educated workforces.
6 figures salaries for senior devs in Berlin are quite common, even since a couple years ago.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?
#90It sounds like you're an extrovert. The tech scene tends to have more introverts, hence why this is a controversial opinion for your friend circle.
I think of it like this - extroverts gain energy from social interaction, introverts lose energy from social interaction. Working in an office environment with all extroverts is great so long as the company's work doesn't require more introverts than it has available.
But if introverts work alongside extroverts, the introverts are essentially paying a subsidy to the extroverts in the form of their own Lebenskraft. When people got sent home, extroverts lost this subsidy while introverts stopped having to pay it. Of course, they don't want to start paying it again. Who 'wins' this power struggle is essentially a question of who has more leverage, and extroverts of course have more social capital (because gaining it is a self-renewing function for them). However, because they dislike interruptions introverts tend to do more 'deep work'[1] which makes them harder to replace in an industry like tech.
Regarding your point about attacking the branch we're on, that's valid, but I would point out that almost everyone says they want an equal playing field for the global village, and leaving 'but not if it impacts my personal standard of living in any way' unsaid at the end doesn't go over well if you do have to say it aloud. For myself, I can only say that if I can't stay competitive in the global marketplace given the advantages I'll retain in such a marketplace, I probably need to rethink my strategy.
For your personal situation - can't you find a co-working space to work alongside other extroverts in? I would imagine Berlin doesn't have a shortage of them.