Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Why is pay so much higher in the US? (or is it?)

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 175 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why is pay so much higher in the US? (or is it?)

#81

Post by viraptor »

whiddershins wrote: post #71
viraptor wrote: post #15

Things to keep in mind in comparisons like that: - Where in the us? SV will have absurd salaries, but also absurd cost of living. - What do you pay for in your country? How much is your health insurance? GP visits? Family education? - What's the environment like compared to a $random_us_location. For example do you need to own a car to survive and do you spend lots on daily driving? - What are your benefits? I've got…

My US-based remote job pays for all these things.

Yes, I'm sure there's non-zero amount of people who get lots of benefits. And you're likely aware how lucky you are. The point was: it's not common and not required at state/federal level.

Re: Ask HN: Why is pay so much higher in the US? (or is it?)

#82

Post by beardyw »

Scoundreller wrote: post #47
blackhaz wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in London. Developed a persistent headache which goes on for a few months already. Just got appointment to a neurologist for August 2023. Today is September 2022. Although, is UK in Europe?...

No longer, because 350 million pounds a week was being diverted from the NHS into Brussels.

The pitch was the other way around, that £350 million going into the EU (if you believe that figure) could go to the NHS (it won't).

Re: Ask HN: Why is pay so much higher in the US? (or is it?)

#83

Post by hulitu »

refurb wrote: post #77
creativenolo wrote: post #74

No mention of time off. Salaries might be higher in the US but how should the increased time off factor into the calculations? I'd love to work in the US. But the lack of days off is off putting. I have yet to come off a holiday wishing I'd been working instead — from a short, medium and long term perspective — even when work is great.

If you're working for a SV tech firm, the vacation is comparable. I had 5.5 weeks off per year. I took 5 weeks off in a row one time. People who replied to emails on vacation were laughed at ("don't they have a life beyond work?").

5.5 Weeks is 28 working days. That's what a begginer gets here in DE ( as engineer)

Re: Ask HN: Why is pay so much higher in the US? (or is it?)

#84

Post by refurb »

hulitu wrote: post #83
refurb wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're working for a SV tech firm, the vacation is comparable. I had 5.5 weeks off per year. I took 5 weeks off in a row one time. People who replied to emails on vacation were laughed at ("don't they have a life beyond work?").

5.5 Weeks is 28 working days. That's what a begginer gets here in DE ( as engineer)

Right, so "comparable".

Re: Ask HN: Why is pay so much higher in the US? (or is it?)

#85

Post by DoingIsLearning »

kf7njh wrote: post #67

As an American living in Germany for a few years now, this is something I really struggle with. In short, it's because Europeans are content with lower wages. I am in a "high-demand" job as an electrical engineer at a publicly traded medical company, and getting less than €65k. This is absolutely absurd in my opinion, but in discussions with friends/colleagues they feel it's overall typical. One colleague was in shoc…

You make a lot of good points. I agree it is a cultural problem but the other half of the problem is _Taxation_.

Culturally most workers in EU markets (I am generalizing but lets exclude Executive, Finance, and Consulting positions) see an offer letter as the end of the recruitment process. People are not confident in negotiating an offer up because they are afraid employers will withdraw or walk-way (Which I have had happen so definitely not impossible). This also means that employers are more likely to see someone negotiating up (for a non-management position) as a 'difficult' IC.

The costs per 'permanent' employee in terms of taxation/contributions is higher than in the US. The taxation on employee income is _way_ higher in most of Europe than in the US. This double stream of government income from employer and employee is needed to finance both the huge slice of government spending (Healthcare, Social Services, Infrastructure) as well as the Pension Systems that at this point are a Ponzi scheme where working taxpayers are paying for retiree income (Privatized Retirement is fairly limited in Europe and mostly optional on top of standard contributions).

You see these two problems dissolve (Culture of content, and high taxation) when looking at the Contractor market, where employers are able to offer far higher rates very similar to the US market when ajusted to COL.

Ultimately lower taxes for the average worker are not gonna happen in Europe because gov deficits would be rampant and nobody is willing to forsake the existing social safety nets.

Re: Ask HN: Why is pay so much higher in the US? (or is it?)

#86

Post by whiddershins »

permo-w wrote: post #79
whiddershins wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More realistically the Revolutionary War.

I completely disagree

Then why don't Mexican software companies pay really extra well? Mexico wasn't damaged by WWII at all!

Re: Ask HN: Why is pay so much higher in the US? (or is it?)

#87

Post by whiddershins »

viraptor wrote: post #81
whiddershins wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My US-based remote job pays for all these things.

Yes, I'm sure there's non-zero amount of people who get lots of benefits. And you're likely aware how lucky you are. The point was: it's not common and not required at state/federal level.

But the question was literally about remote development work. Unclear why so many people decided to use it to make random criticisms of the US. Or perhaps it is very clear why.

Re: Ask HN: Why is pay so much higher in the US? (or is it?)

#88

Post by olabyne »

kf7njh wrote: post #67

As an American living in Germany for a few years now, this is something I really struggle with. In short, it's because Europeans are content with lower wages. I am in a "high-demand" job as an electrical engineer at a publicly traded medical company, and getting less than €65k. This is absolutely absurd in my opinion, but in discussions with friends/colleagues they feel it's overall typical. One colleague was in shoc…

Hey french here. You are speaking of raw income, right?

I don't think we are content with lower wages. It's just that you cannot really compare EU-US just like that. You need to compare cost of living, entirely. Paid leave. Public holiday. College fees. Working time.

But also what I call 'peace of mind'. In Europe, you have retirement from the state. You will never have crazy, 6 figures hospital bills. My employer fires me ? I don't care, I will stay get paid through unemployment insurance. Getting sick ? Still paid.

However, even if you can't compare US-EU numbers, in Europe engineers are underpaid, and it's good that you try to raise your voice through your colleagues. I think we are also a bit shy about sharing numbers in the office, which only benefits to the employer

Re: Ask HN: Why is pay so much higher in the US? (or is it?)

#89

Post by skywal_l »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #85
kf7njh wrote: post #67

As an American living in Germany for a few years now, this is something I really struggle with. In short, it's because Europeans are content with lower wages. I am in a "high-demand" job as an electrical engineer at a publicly traded medical company, and getting less than €65k. This is absolutely absurd in my opinion, but in discussions with friends/colleagues they feel it's overall typical. One colleague was in shoc…

You make a lot of good points. I agree it is a cultural problem but the other half of the problem is _Taxation_. Culturally most workers in EU markets (I am generalizing but lets exclude Executive, Finance, and Consulting positions) see an offer letter as the end of the recruitment process. People are not confident in negotiating an offer up because they are afraid employers will withdraw or walk-way (Which I have ha…

> Pension Systems that at this point are a Ponzi scheme where working taxpayers are paying for retiree income (Privatized Retirement is fairly limited in Europe and mostly optional on top of standard contributions)

How is this a Ponzi Scheme ? Currently working people help sustain retired people the same way retired people help the retired people when they were working and the same way young people will sustain the currently working people when they retire. That's called generational solidarity. What European countries used to do at a family level, they do it at a national level now.

One of the PROs of it is that if the cost of living change dramatically (which has been the case of the last 50 years) the pensions can adapt because they depend on current income instead of the pensioners relying on investments which sometimes are wiped out through no fault of their own.

One of the CONs of course is the delayed effect of the baby boom. But one can expect that it was a particular historical artifact that might not occur again.

You can disagree with the idea but calling it a Ponzi scheme is incorrect.

Re: Ask HN: Why is pay so much higher in the US? (or is it?)

#90

Post by pwinnski »

cheschire wrote: post #43
lucumo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's wealth though. OP is asking about income.

Yes, so isn’t it interesting that all that high income isn’t translating into high median wealth?

The question was specifically about software developers.

It could be that the US underpays on average relative to the rest of the world, but they definitely overpay software developers relative to the rest of the world.

Post reply on HN