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Ask HN: What should an ideal developer interview process look like?

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Re: Ask HN: What should an ideal developer interview process look like?

#81

Post by pjc50 »

wonderwonder wrote: post #38
camjohnson26 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been interviewing recently and started turning down any coding assignment that will take more than a couple of hours. To get a reasonable number of offers to enable you to negotiate requires going through the interview process for several companies since some percentage of them will turn you down. After a phone screen I don’t have enough information about the role to be able to potentially waste 10-20 hours on…

Negotiating a salary is a situation I have never been in as I have always told them up front before interviewing how much I want to get paid after finding out the salary range. Whenever a recruiter calls, I ask the salary first and tell them where I want to be on that range before even sending a recent resume. Not that negotiating for more if I have several offers would not be great, just not something I have experie…

First you have to find out the salary range, and a horribly large number of companies are secretive about this.

Re: Ask HN: What should an ideal developer interview process look like?

#82

Post by wccrawford »

Puer wrote: post #13

My most enjoyable interview was for an internship in college. I had a take home coding challenge where I had to write some simple code to fetch information from an API using whatever language I liked. I was given a week to do it, but it only took me an hour or so to meet all of their explicit requirements. I liked that there was no time pressure in that regard. After the week was up I went into the onsite and in the…

The coding challenge sounds a lot like what my company does (including the time contraints and how long it really takes to code it), but the interview is definitely different. Our coding "challenge" isn't a challenge at all, it's just a test of basic developer competency, including following the spec and making things work. There isn't a lot of room to ask about why things were done a certain way.

You've got me thinking that maybe I need something a little more complicated that will give room for those questions.

Re: Ask HN: What should an ideal developer interview process look like?

#83

Post by matthewmacleod »

sifoobar wrote: post #28
Puer wrote: post #13

My most enjoyable interview was for an internship in college. I had a take home coding challenge where I had to write some simple code to fetch information from an API using whatever language I liked. I was given a week to do it, but it only took me an hour or so to meet all of their explicit requirements. I liked that there was no time pressure in that regard. After the week was up I went into the onsite and in the…

My best experience so far was being hired to do real, paid work remotely and then invited to discuss the solution and further plans. I don't do challenges any more, life is too short to waste solving problems that don't exist for someone else without getting paid.

While I appreciate that it can be a waste of time, the way I tended to look at this was that if the coding test / task was minimal, it was an acceptable trade-off for both company and candidate. Like, that task should take an hour or so.

The problem it's trying to solve is just the surprising number of bad candidates that apply. We're talking about people with decent CVs, a bit of work experience at different companies, some open-source work etc., and who had a good chat on the phone – sometimes they just completely mess it up when faced with a task like "combine these JSON files to make output that looks like this sample". Things like code that literally doesn't work, or code that uses totally inappropriate tools. We want to avoid wasting both their time and our time by bringing them onsite for an interview that isn't going to go anywhere.

The risk with being "hired to do real, paid work remotely" is that it relies on finding people who are in a position to do that, and this ends up excluding a bunch of good candidates. Not everybody is in an employment situation that will allow them to do external work, and it disincentives people with families or other commitments.

The process of applying for a position shouldn't be over-burdening on a candidate. I agree that it's unfair to expect lots of stupid work, multiple-day interview processes and so on. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that a candidate who wants to work with a company can afford to spend a few hours in total as part of that process.

Re: Ask HN: What should an ideal developer interview process look like?

#84

Post by wccrawford »

oceanghost wrote: post #47

Counterintuitively I think the problem with hiring is actually a problem with firing. Hear me out. Everyone is so focused on finding this mythical perfect candidate, instead of giving people a chance. Which is really another way of saying "We're afraid to fire people." Culturally, we should hire and fire more freely. I once got a call from a company that said I was an absolute perfect fit for what they were doing-- w…

Culturally, we should sue people less frequently. Until that happens, you won't find companies being more willing to fire people, and therefore won't be willing to give them a chance unless they look really good.

Re: Ask HN: What should an ideal developer interview process look like?

#85

Post by ldite »

Puer wrote: post #13

My most enjoyable interview was for an internship in college. I had a take home coding challenge where I had to write some simple code to fetch information from an API using whatever language I liked. I was given a week to do it, but it only took me an hour or so to meet all of their explicit requirements. I liked that there was no time pressure in that regard. After the week was up I went into the onsite and in the…

With this approach you'll miss good senior people; I have dependants and very little free time outside work. Last time I was looking for a job I skipped everyone who wanted me to do prep/homework. If the other interviews hadn't worked out I'd have gone back to them, but I didn't need to.

Re: Ask HN: What should an ideal developer interview process look like?

#86

Post by maccard »

l0b0 wrote: post #36

I would give them opportunities to show their skills at real-world tasks: - Version control. Given a terminal (or Explorer with TortoiseSomething) and an existing project, make some simple changes and commit. - Testing. Given a simple piece of code, its tests and either a bug report or feature request, explain at least in high level terms how to move forward. - Code review. Give constructive feedback on how to improv…

> Version control. Given a terminal (or Explorer with TortoiseSomething) and an existing project, make some simple changes and commit.

Does this really tell you anything about a candidate? If you sat me down in front of a terminal and said "here's a git shell, make a change and commit it" I'd fail the test immediately. I've used perforce for the last 9 years, and the terms are not the same, and the commands are _not_ discoverable. So you're eliminating anyone who doesn't know git basics (which can be taught in 5 minutes, or with a GUI of their choice), or you're giving a test for some criteria that you won't judge people on, so it's a waste of time.

> - Code review. Give constructive feedback on how to improve any aspect of a diff.

I like this idea actually. Have the person I'm interviewing review a piece of code (maybe a diff? I'm not sure about different diff formats, maybe it just needs to be some text files, or maybe they just have full internet access and the ability to download their own tools), and judge based on that.

Re: Ask HN: What should an ideal developer interview process look like?

#87

Post by EliRivers »

mikekchar wrote: post #70

I have a slightly related question. Imagine that you were being head hunted by a company and that they've decided that they definitely want to hire you, even before the interview. Let's say they can afford to pay you whatever you consider a "reasonable" salary (not high, but not low either). How would you like the interview to go so that you can decide if you want to work there? Interestingly, I would like to see a v…

I'd want to see the kitchen, or wherever people prepare / consume beverages and food.

Re: Ask HN: What should an ideal developer interview process look like?

#88

Post by thaumasiotes »

wccrawford wrote: post #84
oceanghost wrote: post #47

Counterintuitively I think the problem with hiring is actually a problem with firing. Hear me out. Everyone is so focused on finding this mythical perfect candidate, instead of giving people a chance. Which is really another way of saying "We're afraid to fire people." Culturally, we should hire and fire more freely. I once got a call from a company that said I was an absolute perfect fit for what they were doing-- w…

Culturally, we should sue people less frequently. Until that happens, you won't find companies being more willing to fire people, and therefore won't be willing to give them a chance unless they look really good.

> we should sue people less frequently. Until that happens, you won't find companies being more willing to fire people

No, you could also find this if the legal system stopped encouraging meritless suits.

Suing would be less frequent then, but as an effect, not a cause.

Re: Ask HN: What should an ideal developer interview process look like?

#89

Post by lkdjjdjjjdskjd »

l0b0 wrote: post #36

I would give them opportunities to show their skills at real-world tasks: - Version control. Given a terminal (or Explorer with TortoiseSomething) and an existing project, make some simple changes and commit. - Testing. Given a simple piece of code, its tests and either a bug report or feature request, explain at least in high level terms how to move forward. - Code review. Give constructive feedback on how to improv…

Reminds me of this xkcd about tar https://www.xkcd.com/1168/

Or even better, this one about git: https://xkcd.com/1597/

It's good to use version control, but I wouldn't rate it too high in judging developer competence.

Re: Ask HN: What should an ideal developer interview process look like?

#90

Post by sixstringtheory »

EliRivers wrote: post #87
mikekchar wrote: post #70

I have a slightly related question. Imagine that you were being head hunted by a company and that they've decided that they definitely want to hire you, even before the interview. Let's say they can afford to pay you whatever you consider a "reasonable" salary (not high, but not low either). How would you like the interview to go so that you can decide if you want to work there? Interestingly, I would like to see a v…

I'd want to see the kitchen, or wherever people prepare / consume beverages and food.

Funny you bring up kitchens, because I always bring up the _stage_ concept from my time cooking, where you actually go in to work a real shift to see how, as I call it, the “dance” goes.

My favorite interview process is where I’ve done a screen interview or two and then do real work to see the process as it exists. Everything else is advertisement and I’ve grown to distrust the evangelizing people do about how they work.

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