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Ask HN: How's the Paris startup scene?

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Re: Ask HN: How's the Paris startup scene?

#81

Post by Jacqued »

baud147258 wrote: post #61
sailingparrot wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even including social benefits, the salary is 2 to 3 times less Yea... no. Especially if you factor in the cost of life. Edit: Average salary in SF for tech workers is $142k vs $56k in Paris [1]. Once adjusted for cost of living, Paris is roughly 86k$ [1]. Now, you add all the social benefits, like free health care, retirements etc. And if you have/plan on having children, you can add free education as well. All in…

Man, I should really try to get that 13k € raise out of my employer! Just to point that average does not mean that every tech worker get that. And I'd bet that in Paris 56K$ is either very senior pay grade or management. You can also add, among the benefits, the good network of public transport (even if some lines are overloaded).

In my experience, €50k is pretty much middle-of-the road for software developers. That's what I had after ~2 years experience. Beginners get 40k out of college.

Freelancing is also a good option, with daily rates ~400-700€ depending on experience, you can make a much better living than a regular employee.

Re: Ask HN: How's the Paris startup scene?

#82

Post by hluska »

baud147258 wrote: post #74
hluska wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Canadian (from the western part of the country) who grew up speaking pretty decent French, but lost everything but some traces of my accent when my Grandma passed away. I consider losing that language one of the great failures of my life. I understand that that would be annoying. In your shoes, I'd be annoyed if they didn't even try to learn French. I find that when I meet French speakers and want to practice, th…

It depends, in a meeting or for work-related discussion, English would be talked unless everyone is proeficient in French. But in casual conversation, I think you could easily ask people to switch to French.

Thank you! I appreciate you taking the time to answer that. Next time I have a chance to speak French, I'll try that out.

Re: Ask HN: How's the Paris startup scene?

#83

Post by Jacqued »

Dannymetconan wrote: post #19
kjullien wrote: post #13

I live in Paris, am french, and have been working at the same startup for more than a year and some months now. The scene is very active, any new company these days will always brand themselves as a "startup" no matter how they function behind the scenes. So alot of "false advertising" when you postulate, "we're cool and all, we SOMETIMES allow a day of remote work a week" and typical bs like that. Your french will n…

Just a comment but 30k for 2 years full experience seems low. I'm working in another European capital and I'm at 40k for a similar full-stack dev role.

It's on the low end, depending on what you work on. In my experience (on the recruiting end) beginner developers in Paris can get ~40k€ pretty easily by getting several offers. More if they're good negotiators / come from a prestigious school.

Re: Ask HN: How's the Paris startup scene?

#84

Post by thatfrenchguy »

ousta wrote: post #65
Chiminh wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the preferences Paris can be a pretty poor city or the best city in the world. I clearly fall into the first category. Living 'intramuros' is very expensive when adding the fact that salaries are not on part with major tech hubs. The city is dirty, very polluted (2nd worst area in Europe by air pollution after Moscow - don't have the reference link though), people are rude, and everything so cramped it m…

Please give me any example of a major world city where living 'intramuros' is cheap lol.... Salaries are on part with major tech hubs (NYC OR SF are WAY MORE EXPENSIVE than paris and salaries match at the end) Paris is the 15th most polluted city in europe and not the 2nd... "People are rude" - is a generalization and racism toward parisians. plus if you feel like everyone is rude start asking yourself some questions…

Prague, Berlin ? Both are good tech hubs.

Re: Ask HN: How's the Paris startup scene?

#85

Post by vladvasiliu »

Jacqued wrote: post #81
baud147258 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, I should really try to get that 13k € raise out of my employer! Just to point that average does not mean that every tech worker get that. And I'd bet that in Paris 56K$ is either very senior pay grade or management. You can also add, among the benefits, the good network of public transport (even if some lines are overloaded).

In my experience, €50k is pretty much middle-of-the road for software developers. That's what I had after ~2 years experience. Beginners get 40k out of college. Freelancing is also a good option, with daily rates ~400-700€ depending on experience, you can make a much better living than a regular employee.

Bear in mind that that would be the rate charged to the client. In France you'll have to actually have a company of some sort and then you'll get some form of salary (either dividends or actual salary).

The ballpark for your actual cash in hand, assuming no other costs for the company, would be whatever you charge divided by two (social security isn't actually free).

Of course, some things can be expensed, which is a huge advantage, for example a company car or motorbike, a laptop, etc). But it's not entirely free if you use them on your personal time, theoretically you have to pay income tax on some of the object's value.

So the numbers are, considering 220 working days a year (which is probably optimistic, because you have to budget some days to find and develop new leads, plus vacation, sick days, etc):

400 € / day = 88 000 / year => 44-45 000 after tax

Another thing to bear in mind is landlords and banks have a strong preference to rent / lend to people with a stable, long-term contract (CDI). As a freelancer, especially in the beginning, you'll probably encounter quite a few of them who won't want to do business with you. Plus, being a foreigner won't help.

Source: I'm doing the freelance thing.

Re: Ask HN: How's the Paris startup scene?

#86

Post by yardie »

sailingparrot wrote: post #64
sametmax wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know any dev doing 120K USD (105k EURS)__as a salary in Paris. I doubt there are many. If you want to make this figures, you need to be a freelancer, which means no job safety, looking for clients, and paying for social security and requirements yourself. French salaries for dev are in the 30k to 70k depending of your level. 70k is rare. You need to be good. To be able to negotiate or have a rare skill. Howev…

No, he is saying that if you make 120k USD in SF, you can have the same quality of life with 60k euros in Paris, not that 120k$ == 60k euros.

$120k in SF is considered poverty level. And 60k Euros in Paris is nowhere close. 60k means you don't just get by you actually can live. I know because I have.

Re: Ask HN: How's the Paris startup scene?

#87

Post by yardie »

kjullien wrote: post #13

I live in Paris, am french, and have been working at the same startup for more than a year and some months now. The scene is very active, any new company these days will always brand themselves as a "startup" no matter how they function behind the scenes. So alot of "false advertising" when you postulate, "we're cool and all, we SOMETIMES allow a day of remote work a week" and typical bs like that. Your french will n…

Do you have a portfolio? I have some colleagues in Paris looking for a full stack dev right now.

Re: Ask HN: How's the Paris startup scene?

#88

Post by jxub »

azatris wrote: post #39
KeitIG wrote: post #8

> What's the startup scene in Paris like? The start-up scene is currently definitely at an interesting point: really young and active (people already shared links to Startup studios, you should have a look at them). The meetup scene is great too. The salary is still a pity though (compared to the States, Switzerland or Baltic countries). For a middle developer position, you may be around 40K euros, which is "nice in…

I am working in Tallinn. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone say anything good about the salaries here. I'm happy with mine, but it would be 3x higher in US and Switzerland (I have also worked there). What do you base this opinion on?

Maybe the poster ment Baltic states as in Sweden, Finland, Denmark and Germany. Norway and UK are also other decent spots.

Re: Ask HN: How's the Paris startup scene?

#89

Post by fshaun »

ousta wrote: post #80
Jonas_ba wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess any other city than US. I'm fine with paying up front for multiple months, but I was asked multiple times to provide details of my salary for the last 3 months, working for the company that employs me, a FR guarantor (which not coming from France is not that easy to find, I was lucky my company helped me here) + your salary needs to be 3x rent and there's about 20 people looking to move in to every apartment…

same in any major high density city. london is worse. ny is worse. sf is worse.

My experience in London was much better... sure, a hot market meant you needed to move fast, but no hoops around local guarantors or months of pay stubs. It was easier than most local rentals I've done in Boston.

Re: Ask HN: How's the Paris startup scene?

#90

Post by IMTDb »

sametmax wrote: post #67
sailingparrot wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea sure, and a French working for a Dubai-based company would make 5 times more, but that's not really representative of the average case is it?

30% of the french salary goes to social security and retirements. American salaries are 2 to 3 times higher. The cost of life is NOT twice higher. Do the math. Also remember we are talking about tech. Not all salaries.

> American salaries are 2 to 3 times higher. Cash in hand is 2 to 3 times higher, but compensation is not.

You need to include benefits such as company car, extra holidays (europe starts with 20 + unlimited sick days), 13th month (get paid twice on december), food stamps (around 8€ / working day), ...

And stock options can be part of the package on both side of the ocean. You should value them similarly.

> The cost of life is NOT twice higher. Rent is around twice higher in SF, and contributes for a significant portion of your total expense. Other expenses (leisure, culture, ...) is indeed more slightly more expensive in SF but not by a factor x2.

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