Ask HN: Why are law documents (GDPR) so difficult to understand? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why are law documents (GDPR) so difficult to understand?

#81

Post by closeparen » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 12:59 AM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #45

evervevdww221 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if this law will be abused as a tactic to attack business competitions? Why would that happen? > For example, Business A has a competitor startup B who has less resources to hire security consultant. Business A hence hired person C to register the service provided by B with a weak password and hire D to breach C's account. C claims that he has been hacked, so he brings startup B to court. B goes bankrupt because…

B goes bankrupt because it runs out of money to hire lawyers. Right, that's like any other malicious lawsuit – i.e. this is totally irrelevant. I'm self learned, garage based entrepreneur with $1000 in my bank to either buy food or hire a consultant, is that required experience? Yes. If you don't have the knowledge or resources to correctly comply with appropriate regulation, then you should not be operating in a spa…

Food safety standards are a concrete set of rules that are trivially captured in training for low-wage, low-literacy, high-turnover workers. Restaurants do not need to hire specialist lawyers to guess at how the courts might interpret them. This analogy is completely inappropriate.

Re: Ask HN: Why are law documents (GDPR) so difficult to understand?

#82

Post by slovette » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

dc2 wrote: post #69

Tomte wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why we have independent judges. "Pressuring a judge" would be an impressive feat. They are generally obnoxiously aware of their untouchable status. And if society's stance really changes, we want the courts to take that into account. Again. feature, not bug.

Well I'm talking about exactly that - social pressure. Just because popular opinion (aka the vocal social media / news / social media echo chamber) approves of something, it doesn't mean it is correct. Governments and courts have definite pressure to legalize marijuana, for example. That pressure is based on popular public opinion. Therefore approving it gives that legal body or state acceptance / goodwill. This is a…

I don’t think this deserves to be down voted. It’s a valid perspective I think shared among those that are, perhaps, removed from legal specificities and their make-up.

I also think this point resonates fairly well in smaller courts (read as maybe more rural areas) where the legal system is closely tied with the social system of the area and there are indeed LOTS of incentives to introduce, we’ll calm them, ‘alternative judgements’.

All that said, I think law has to be appropriately ambiguous in order to remain relevant and applicable through change and societal adaptation in norms. Hence, case by case context.

This is why it looks to contain so much flex in the language. Right and wrong is implicitly an ambiguous and ever changing notion, described and defined only by the same body of individuals that mutually agree to uphold it. It’s fluid.

However, I also see the perspective that the fluidity of societal definitions and the increasing ease through technology to greatly influence a vast chunk of that populations opinion, can make these things misalign with ethical appropriateness. See the Nissan.com website case or any other number of court cases that clearly concluded under the coercive pressure of the more powerful/wealthy party.

Re: Ask HN: Why are law documents (GDPR) so difficult to understand?

#83

Post by TheCoelacanth » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 5:47 PM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #81

matthewmacleod wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

B goes bankrupt because it runs out of money to hire lawyers. Right, that's like any other malicious lawsuit – i.e. this is totally irrelevant. I'm self learned, garage based entrepreneur with $1000 in my bank to either buy food or hire a consultant, is that required experience? Yes. If you don't have the knowledge or resources to correctly comply with appropriate regulation, then you should not be operating in a spa…

Food safety standards are a concrete set of rules that are trivially captured in training for low-wage, low-literacy, high-turnover workers. Restaurants do not need to hire specialist lawyers to guess at how the courts might interpret them. This analogy is completely inappropriate.

Food safety standards are actually a good example of how laws don't include specifics like "keep raw and cooked meat separate".

For example, the FDA Food Safety and Modernization Act[1] doesn't include specifics about how food should be handled. It specifies some areas where the FDA is supposed to issue rules and then the FDA makes rules based on the authority that the law gives it.

GDPR has Data Protection Offices that issue more specific guidance about how to comply. For instance, the UK Data Protection Office issued this guidance[2] about how to prepare for GDPR.

[1] https://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/PublicHealthFocus/ucm239907.h...

[2] https://ico.org.uk/media/1624219/preparing-for-the-gdpr-12-s...

Re: Ask HN: Why are law documents (GDPR) so difficult to understand?

#84

Post by TheCoelacanth » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 6:03 PM UTC

billconan wrote: post #58

yorwba wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but it's probably not compliant. http://www.ycombinator.com/legal/ even explicitly says that Please note that we have no obligation to delete any of stories, favorites or comments listed in your profile or otherwise remove their association with your profile or username. I presume this is based on the theory that European law can't be enforced against HN since it operates from California. On the other hand, it…

No, GDPR says entities outside EU will be affected too, as long as you process EU people's data. I read somewhere the penalty is 20 million dollars!

What matters is whether or not you target users in the EU. If people in the EU use your services in spite of you taking no action to target them, then GDPR doesn't apply.

HN probably would not be considered to be targeting EU users because it is an English-only forum based in the US that does no marketing towards EU users. If they added a German-language forum, then they would probably need to start following GDPR because that would be interpreted as targeting users in the EU.

This is based on CJEU's interpretation of previous regulations[1]. Factors that they listed were:

> Use of the language of a Member State (if the language is different than the language of the home state);

> Use of the currency of a Member State (if the currency is different than the currency of the home state);

> Use of a top-level domain name of a Member State;

> Mentions of customers based in a Member State; or

> Targeted advertising to consumers in a Member State.

[1] https://www.wileyrein.com/newsroom-newsletters-item-May_2017...

Re: Ask HN: Why are law documents (GDPR) so difficult to understand?

#85

Post by aurizon » Wed, Mar 28, 2018, 11:21 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #25

aurizon wrote: post #2

Lawyers wished to create a 'walled garden' for their knowledge and methods. Doctors do the same and the churches also did it. These people charge fees for access to this knowledge and do not want easy access to the general public. recent advances in AI endanger many jobs at law firms and medical practices and may result in fewer jobs - at law firms at least. I expect the medical and legal lobbyists will bribe our ele…

The "walled garden" is knowledge . To understand legalese, you have to know the definitions of the words. Specifically, you have to know the definitions as used by the courts . Many words have very precise legal definitions, which may or may not correspond with the non-legal definition. Why is it that way? When you're writing a contract or a law, having words that let you state precisely what you mean saves a lot of…

Yes, there is a dual use, keeping information a trade secret, as well as good communication across legal or medical fraternities. The trade and craft secrecy was mainly to mulct clients and restrict trade competition. https://www.google.ca/search?q=mediaeval+trade+monopolies&oq...