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Ask HN: What’s your favorite talk from 2017?

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Re: Ask HN: What’s your favorite talk from 2017?

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IQ does negatively correlate with race, that's a fact. The point he (and others) make is that we shouldn't treat low-IQ people as subhumans, just because they lost in the genetic lottery. There are many other things that correlate with race, both phenotypically and genetically, there advantages and disadvantages to different ethnicities and races. Why is it so radical to say that IQ is different between races? Is it…

> IQ does negatively correlate with race, that's a fact This is not as much of a slam-dunk as one might think. There's a need for more very careful work that attempts to isolate race from culture. Race is not even a well defined concept, although obviously heredity works, and we understand a lot of the detailed biology behind it (heredity). If you come from a culture of learning, with centuries of history of scholars…

You are correct, both matter, but the genetic part definitely plays a role, and it snowballs (less intelligent parents will not teach their children as well). The point remains, when you see a random black person and a white one and an asian, and a jew, your average racist will factually be right in guessing their relative intelligence, regardless of the cause. The point I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't treat people like shit, just because they are less intelligent - it's rarely their fault.

There are other factors, like the brain size, which is again negatively correlated with black race.

None of that matters, I think. In a few decades all humans will be dumb in almost every field, even if don't invent general AI (which we likely will).

Peterson actually talks about low-IQ people in the increasingly automated world, and he is predicting they will be the earliest victims of automation, not only because they tend to work manual repetitive jobs, but because it's nearly impossible to train them to do something that requires higher intelligence. We won't be seeing millions of truck drivers converting to programmers and surgeons.

Re: Ask HN: What’s your favorite talk from 2017?

#82
It is not my favourite talk, but it is the one I almost happy about discovering:

Andy Wingo's talk "Channels, Concurrency, and Cores: A new Concurrent ML implementation" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7IcI6sl5oBc

Because it made me discover that concurrent programming can actually be nice.

Re: Ask HN: What’s your favorite talk from 2017?

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's a psychology professor, formerly at Harvard now at UoT. He knows about IQ, and he's not far right. You should convert some of that politically biased 'skepticism' into dispassionate inquiry.

Yeah, it's ok to just "ask questions" about black people being subhumans. Right? The appeal to authority is cute, though.

> Yeah, it's ok to just "ask questions" about black people being subhumans. Right?

So... where did you get the idea that this is a credible takeaway from his work?

(Also, he'd probably be the first person to agree with the assessment that university employment or credentials doesn't necessarily mean that your claims or research are any good...)

Re: Ask HN: What’s your favorite talk from 2017?

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't Jordan Peterson also famous for being a proponent of racial IQ theories? I'm really skeptical about IQ in general, but anyone popular with the far right really makes me suspicious. I'll take a look at the link you provided...But man, there are an awful lot of 1488 types that support this guy. It really makes me question where he is coming from.

IQ does negatively correlate with race, that's a fact. The point he (and others) make is that we shouldn't treat low-IQ people as subhumans, just because they lost in the genetic lottery. There are many other things that correlate with race, both phenotypically and genetically, there advantages and disadvantages to different ethnicities and races. Why is it so radical to say that IQ is different between races? Is it…

I completely agree that JBP is a strong advocate of the idea that individual dignity and worth is not based in IQ.

I'm having trouble recalling places where he's drawn any correlation between race and IQ, except some rather narrow cases like the Ashkenazi Jews.

And I'm not familiar with any research that conclusively establishes a connection between racial categories (as often constructed in US/western discourse, anyway) and IQ:

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/5/18/15655638/charles-...

Re: Ask HN: What’s your favorite talk from 2017?

#85
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's some dispassionate inquiry: he leans on IQ far too heavily to explain how the brain works. While there is correlation between jobs and IQ and some research that shows a mild inverse relationship between IQ and crime, it's not the end-all-be-all of psychology, as he claims, "If you don’t buy IQ research, then you might as well throw away all of psychology." What of all of the other areas of psychology? If IQ wa…

He does not claim at what you say at all. I'll try to summarize his position on IQ without doing him a disservice. * IQ is highly correlated to intelligence (what is called technically g). Highly enough that you can use it as a measure of general intelligence. * IQ is the only test we have that accurately measures intelligence and that is not a self-report test. * IQ has been shown to be the highest predictor for suc…

Whoa....I never knew one could decrease IQ

Re: Ask HN: What’s your favorite talk from 2017?

#86

Not a single talk, but a series: Jordan Peterson’s Psychological Significance of the Bible Stories. As an atheist I found his explanations extremely interesting. Peterson is a brilliant scholar and draws connections between psychology and brain structures, human evolution, and religion. I don’t believe in any trascendental being, but listening to these lectures made me understand better the psychological and moral va…

What a coincidence! I just discovered Jordan Peterson on Joe Rogan show few weeks ago and been binge watching his talks since then. I get a certain feel of skepticism every now and then whether he actually represents any fascist ideas. Not because of his talks, but rather how they are edited out of context, used in "Stupid liberal got owned by Jordan Peterson" videos with these kind of aggressive titles. That aside,…

I might suggest to look at the full videos instead of the edits, especially if they have a clickbait title.

They are usually one-hour long videos or more, I know. But that clears every doubt.

Re: Ask HN: What’s your favorite talk from 2017?

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IQ does negatively correlate with race, that's a fact This is not as much of a slam-dunk as one might think. There's a need for more very careful work that attempts to isolate race from culture. Race is not even a well defined concept, although obviously heredity works, and we understand a lot of the detailed biology behind it (heredity). If you come from a culture of learning, with centuries of history of scholars…

You are correct, both matter, but the genetic part definitely plays a role, and it snowballs (less intelligent parents will not teach their children as well). The point remains, when you see a random black person and a white one and an asian, and a jew, your average racist will factually be right in guessing their relative intelligence, regardless of the cause. The point I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't treat…

>when you see a random black person and a white one and an asian, and a jew, your average racist will factually be right in guessing their relative intelligence

Wrong. Individuals are not populations. The most you could say is that if someone guesses a large number of times they'll be right slightly more often than not. This is not a trivial point.

Re: Ask HN: What’s your favorite talk from 2017?

#88

Not a single talk, but a series: Jordan Peterson’s Psychological Significance of the Bible Stories. As an atheist I found his explanations extremely interesting. Peterson is a brilliant scholar and draws connections between psychology and brain structures, human evolution, and religion. I don’t believe in any trascendental being, but listening to these lectures made me understand better the psychological and moral va…

I found him via his Personality and it's Transformations lecture series (I love psychometrics!), I very much enjoy watching his lectures on whatever he does, he is very sincere and honest.

Re: Ask HN: What’s your favorite talk from 2017?

#90
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IQ does negatively correlate with race, that's a fact. The point he (and others) make is that we shouldn't treat low-IQ people as subhumans, just because they lost in the genetic lottery. There are many other things that correlate with race, both phenotypically and genetically, there advantages and disadvantages to different ethnicities and races. Why is it so radical to say that IQ is different between races? Is it…

To those wondering why alt-right/neo-nazi/1488-type people are flocking to Jordan Peterson: this comment accurately describes both Peterson's views and the alt-right view on race. Many alt-right people claim they acknowledge "factual differences" of race, which is the basis for their ethno-nationalist views. Here's a discussion on the alt-right following of Peterson on his subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPe…

That comment/subdiscussion you're linking to on the subreddit seems like a pretty good examination of the relationship that's developed between him and the alt-right. Or at least part of one.

But I'm puzzled by the statement that the comment you're responding to accurately describes Peterson's views on race. Except maybe in narrow categories that don't match up particularly well with a broad conception like "race" (e.g., Ashkenazi Jews), I can't recall any instances of him asserting a correlation between race and IQ, though it's possible I've missed something, and I'm open to visiting anything you might want to point out.

And I also think that it's a mistake to boil the alt-right relationship down to race issues. I think it starts elsewhere. In addition to the points in that reddit discussion, I think there's a fundamental shared narrative that goes something like this:

"Some (or all!) of the people and institutions that make up society are hostile to people speaking the truth freely. Maybe even more hostile to it than they were in the past. They are hostile to it because they are weak and corrupt and tyrannical. But it's important thing for people to speak up anyway."

Peterson absolutely says this, repeatedly and quite clearly. And it resonates, because most people probably have been in situations where they've faced hostility and even retaliation for saying something that others didn't like.

And I think if you pressed Peterson, he would probably say that this narrative is part of the human condition, and the reason why he frames the problem as people being weak and corrupt and tyrannical is that it's a known failure mode for pretty much all of humanity and it's probably true in some degree inside every single human being. And it's important to speak up anyway not necessarily because you are the sole promethean bearer of The Truth, but because nobody is the lone possessor of the truth and we will likely do better at working things out if we have conversations and negotiate. I think this line of argument has some limits that I'm not sure are sufficiently explored, but it's a pretty compelling one based on my own introspection and observation of humans, though I also find that the degree of "corrupt"ness in the hypothetical human you're dealing with matters a lot, and I also think Peterson may underestimate the downside of using language like "weak and corrupt and tyrannical" because it invites contempt into the understanding of the situation and that usually doesn't make things better.

But for some segments of the right (among other people), I think this narrative often goes farther. It is not a description of part of what it's like to exist as a human among other humans, it is part of repeated liturgy about the problem of being a conservative in a society besieged by malevolent political opposition. It says that conservatives in particular are unjustly singled out for this kind of treatment, and that it's much more often because of bias rather than any flaws in their own position, and that the weak and corrupt and tyrannical people are Marxists who want a totalitarian state, and what you have to say is not only important because the process of dialogue helps with synthesis but it's important because it's the Capital-RT Real Truth whose only flaw is that too many people aren't brave or strong enough to look it in the eye and understand it, and the only hope is that you repeat it often and strongly enough without being seduced.

(And again, the right is hardly the only segment of humanity that starts to think like this, but I don't think there's any credible argument that this narrative isn't deeply embedded in current political conservatism in the US.)

Now, I happen to think that there's an important distinction between the former and the latter formation of this narrative. But no matter how nuanced someone is being, if you lower the resolution at which you're listening to someone present both, you might not be able to tell the difference. One could imagine that someone who can't tell the difference between "IQ matters and has a genetic component" and "you can make sensible generalizations about a person's IQ by race (and we should!)" might have precisely that problem.

And though I think JBP tends to be nuanced and I try to pay attention to that... frankly, there are times when I can't tell the difference between the former and the latter (which seems weird to me considering how widely prevalent and accepted many conservative ideas among my social circle and in the institutions I tend to participate in. But then again, I don't work at a University, and I grew up in a conservative state and am part of a religious subculture, and so most of the time when I'm facing an uphill battle in a discussion it's quite the opposite).

So I think that's where the love-in begins. It probably also helps that JBP defends the value and message of traditional religious stories and focuses quite a bit on personal responsibility (perhaps as contrasted with state measures) and the merits of conscientiousness and bringing order into the world -- all things that are likely to resonate with conservatives.

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