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Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?

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Re: Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?

#81
Having been in a similar position before, here's my questions and considerations.

1. Why are they looking externally for a candidate instead of an internal candidate that is more familiar and has a track record with the company than a brand new leader?

2. What were the specific expectations of the incumbent leader and how long have they been in the position? Someone needs to explain what happened and realize that this very same dynamic could happen to you. If nobody communicates with a person that they think their communication is bad, it's a passive-aggressive culture that won't lead to good outcomes more often than not, especially long term.

3. What's the turnover rate for the team? Don't believe whatever they tell you, but make a note. Then try to assess its veracity based upon Linkedin stalking of both currently employed and past employees.

4. What's the highest level of management that is in agreement of replacing this person? If something came from really high up, I'd ask if there was a specific incident. I've seen people let go because they made exactly one hot-headed executive very angry for flippant reasons and while everyone in management that actually knew these people were fine, their hands were tied. That kind of leadership style is micromanagement oftentimes and the toxicity and blame games will eventually make their way down the longer the leader stays.

Re: Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?

#82
How many tests do you have? More tests is better. For a 3-year old product the number should be around 10k.

How many of them red? If tests are red - it's bad. For how long they are red?

If there is a need to "fix approximately hundred tests", it's a bad sign.

I found that amount of tests, tests execution time, test coverage is very important and it answers almost all the questions.

How often did you need to sacrifice test coverage to deliver the software? There is always a need to release, there is always deadline. It depends how company react. For example, during Rails 5 release they don't care, just push deadline. It's a good sign, because folks understand that code quality == developer happiness.

Re: Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is incredible insight. I hope the OP listens to this advice as there are several signs of a toxic organizations and is probably ignoring them on the hope that it not.

I'm told the manager in question knows of his/her shortcomings. I need to learn whether an improvement plan was ever installed & the results (thus far) of that plan. To be clear - I haven't detected any really toxic behavior. It just seems like a good-faith hire didn't work out.

Knows of shortcomings or knows of the upcoming replacement? There's a big difference.

If the manager was "let go" and offered to stick around until a replacement could be found, that's a much better situation.

Re: Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?

#84

They are conspiring to replace an existing employee. That says enough. If the organization were "healthy" they would be upfront with the existing manager and allow him/her to gracefully exit. That they won't do this suggests that there is a lot of mistrust going on, or possibly optics with the investors around turnover -- not sure which is worse. By taking the role, you will be viewed as having taken sides with the p…

> They are conspiring to replace an existing employee. That says enough. If the organization were "healthy" they would be upfront with the existing manager and allow him/her to gracefully exit.

You seem to start from this very distrustful premise and never look back.

Would you say the same of someone who gives significant notice of their departure (say, a retirement or medical situation) to the relevant supervisors but doesn't inform subordinates until a replacement is on board? What if that person were a fairly high ranking one in the organizational structure, as it sounds this one is?

Confidential replacement is pretty typical when the outgoing leader has no apparent (temporary) replacement and transitioning duties twice would be difficult/disruptive. It's not broken culture to ensure the wheels keep turning despite a pending high-profile departure.

Not to mention, if a manager and two tech leads are involved, it's pretty likely the outgoing manager is at least peripherally aware of the situation. You could very well be right about this employer, but the presumption that the nature of the search is somehow underhanded or deceitful is pretty one-sided.

Re: Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?

#85
post #84

They are conspiring to replace an existing employee. That says enough. If the organization were "healthy" they would be upfront with the existing manager and allow him/her to gracefully exit. That they won't do this suggests that there is a lot of mistrust going on, or possibly optics with the investors around turnover -- not sure which is worse. By taking the role, you will be viewed as having taken sides with the p…

> They are conspiring to replace an existing employee. That says enough. If the organization were "healthy" they would be upfront with the existing manager and allow him/her to gracefully exit. You seem to start from this very distrustful premise and never look back. Would you say the same of someone who gives significant notice of their departure (say, a retirement or medical situation) to the relevant supervisors b…

Agree. That is far too strong a conclusion from the information provided, though a good potential scenario to be on watch for.

Re: Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?

#86
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question, do you know many people who enjoy jumping into dysfunction and making it better?

If fixing that is your core skill, I expect you'd look for that kind of job.

I'm a product lead not a technical lead, but in that domain I prefer roles where the situation is dysfunctional. If everything is working well enough then management don't want a troubleshooter. If things are broken then there's a challenge in figuring out what's wrong, who needs to talk to who, who is making the situation worse ...

Re: Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?

#87
post #84

They are conspiring to replace an existing employee. That says enough. If the organization were "healthy" they would be upfront with the existing manager and allow him/her to gracefully exit. That they won't do this suggests that there is a lot of mistrust going on, or possibly optics with the investors around turnover -- not sure which is worse. By taking the role, you will be viewed as having taken sides with the p…

> They are conspiring to replace an existing employee. That says enough. If the organization were "healthy" they would be upfront with the existing manager and allow him/her to gracefully exit. You seem to start from this very distrustful premise and never look back. Would you say the same of someone who gives significant notice of their departure (say, a retirement or medical situation) to the relevant supervisors b…

> You seem to start from this very distrustful premise and never look back.

The OP writes "they want to replace the existing manager". Chances are this would have been phrased "the existing manager is moving on" if no deceit was involved.

> Would you say the same of someone who gives significant notice of their departure

When to make the information known to the rest of the team should be a management team decision. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all answer.

> What if that person were a fairly high ranking one in the organizational structure

Finding a replacement before announcing the departure to the team makes sense. It sounds like in the OP's situation the outgoing manager is not aware of his/her status.

> Confidential replacement is pretty typical when the outgoing leader has no apparent (temporary) replacement and transitioning duties twice would be difficult/disruptive. It's not broken culture to ensure the wheels keep turning despite a pending high-profile departure.

Not sure if you are referring to keeping it confidential from the employee being replaced or from the rest of the team.

> ...the presumption that the nature of the search is somehow underhanded or deceitful is pretty one-sided

I think you are suggesting that it is appropriate (not deceitful) to attempt to hire the replacement before informing the current manager. Ideally in situations where something isn't working out, both parties can collaborate to phase things out in a mutually respectful way, especially in a startup.

Yes, in big companies there is an HR department and all sorts of reasons why "typical" HR practices make sense. But a person joining a startup should feel that the team he/she is joining is not typical and has the sort of integrity to act cooperative (in a game theoretic sense) in these sorts of scenarios.

FWIW these sorts of scenarios are inevitable. Sometimes employment arrangements don't work out. How they are handled offers an indication of the character of the management team.

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