Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#791

Post by oblio » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 12:57 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #404

terwey wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denmark and the Netherlands have the highest income tax bracket at 52/53%. Germany is 43%. However they are stacked taxes. In Germany (where I reside), the first €9744 (2021) is untaxed, then 14% until a certain amount (can't find it atm) and max 43%. However, if you do your tax returns your effective tax rate will drop significantly. I'd wager that most pay around 25% in total income taxes, excluding things like the…

I was laid off recently due to the pandemic. Because I work in tech, it took me two weeks to find a new job and it ended up being a promotion and a 20% raise. I would make 40% less in Europe, even in a big city, and unless I lived in a small European town my cost of living would be quite a lot higher. Even factoring healthcare (contrary to what Europeans perceive, the healthcare system works very well for the upper m…

Just have to point out that the pandemic was not a tech crisis. If you want a point of reference, think of the dotcom bust. That was a tech crisis.

White collar workers, especially STEM ones have largely coasted through this pandemic.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#792

Post by imtringued » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 1:01 PM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #249

sokoloff wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would way rather program 60 hours a week than live as the hunter-gatherers did.

I am not sure, in there own world some tribes might have been far happier than 95% of society is today

I don't think I am able to make this judgement but I can talk about what happened after hunter gatherer tribes disappeared.

If you are a hunter gatherer you just need a good hunt every now and then. There is no pressure to perform work all day if you get enough food.

This is different if you are a farmer. Farming is highly labor intensive. There is so much work to do that you are never done. You will have to repeat the same motions every single day. Swing the same tools the exact same way. People are tied to their land and it is possible to conquer the land violently. You are dependent on a military force which implies that a local ruler must collect taxes to pay the soldiers. That ruler also has power over you which can easily be abused.

Democracy is definitively fairer than having an authoritarian ruler but it can be subject to tyranny of the majority or the minority and still cause failure in leadership.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#793

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 1:04 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #778

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This comment makes the mistake of treating Europe like a country, which it is not. Of course it's not, never said it was but cherry picking countries with larger inheritance tax is also a mistake as you can't choose where you pay your taxes as an EU resident. You pay them where your main residence is. So on the other side of the spectrum you have Austria which has high income tax (because socialism and income equali…

I play an economic simulation game. Every time I see an asset explode in price (inflation) I am thinking "I should get into this industry and produce the stuff that is going up in price". High housing prices are a strong demand signal, meaning more houses should be built. It's really unfortunate that it does not happen enough.

Because it's not the building the houses that's the tricky part, that is easy, it's the land that's expensive and difficult to obtain. That's what's appreciating since it's a finite amount, not the walls and roof sitting on it.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#794

Post by Hamuko » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

throwawayin12 wrote: post #754

seltzered_ wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's cultural differences here depending on where the employer is based. I believe the employee-CEO pay gap is substantially less for many European companies (excluding UK).

Right, they only own one Porsche here and a few houses.

I was actually surprised by how shitty of a car our CEO had (it was an Opel). Well, not sure if it was his, but it was the one I saw him in during a company outing.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#795

Post by 5560675260 » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #473

throwaway894345 wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Home process in the US are historically very stable. I would think this is also true in Europe? As for diversification, your house shouldn’t be your only investment. As for fires and natural disasters, this is why insurance exists. Owning a home isn’t for everyone, but I don’t think there’s anything particularly risky about it as far as investments go.

Buying a home in a tolerable location costs at least 200k in my area and upkeep isn't free either. I can rent an apartment in a much better area for fifteen to twenty years for just the initial investment. A house can easily lose its value or at least cause large expenses, e.g. if the cellar floods or develops mold problems. Or if the surrounding neighborhood becomes worse. Selling houses has a large transaction cost…

Shouldn't you also factor rent into your calculations? I don't know how high it is on 200k property, but I assume it's significantly higher than 5k/year. Owning a house is risky for the reasons you've mentioned, but might give you higher returns.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#796

Post by llampx » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

terwey wrote: post #174

nackerhewz wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because most people in Europe don't really make enough to do so. Also if you somehow manage to increase your income, over half of it disappears in taxes and social security contributions.

Denmark and the Netherlands have the highest income tax bracket at 52/53%. Germany is 43%. However they are stacked taxes. In Germany (where I reside), the first €9744 (2021) is untaxed, then 14% until a certain amount (can't find it atm) and max 43%. However, if you do your tax returns your effective tax rate will drop significantly. I'd wager that most pay around 25% in total income taxes, excluding things like the…

Interestingly enough, I wrote above about this as well but with the opposite sentiment. The Spitzensteuersatz of 42% is applicable for income from 57k€ onwards. That's hardly rich and hardly deserving of so much tax. Meanwhile I could earn millions through investments and dividends and would only pay 25% capital gains tax. Also, 25% sounds ridiculously low when you add up the income tax, social contributions, sales tax, capital gains tax etc. Not to forget yes the 7%/14% you pay for health insurance. Or you have cherry-picked a family of 4 with one person earning 45k€ a year and drawing the most Kindergeld possible.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#797

Post by 2rsf » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #363

This is a pretty simple topic if you have a good understanding of what enabled developers to pull in large comps, and what kinds of employers pay such comps. I comment on comp threads on HN frequently and don't want to rehash my entire advice, but I can illustrate one example that can be generalized to Europe and America. Consider two hypothetical employers: Employer 1: - We want to hire only the best. - We expect pe…

#2 is definitely not the norm in Sweden, and we do have a lot of startups.

People leave for higher salaries and broader opportunities since after all Sweden is small and isolated, but not lack of challenges

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#798

Post by imtringued » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #631

hogFeast wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about the other countries you have mentioned but German residential real estate has very high levels of institutional investment and the legacy of rent control (famously, Berlin...although that changed a few years ago). So you have very high wealth inequality, average German net financial wealth is equal to Greece and Germany has a significant number of billionaires, but you also have a system that funda…

What happened with rent control in Berlin? Rent control sounds like a good idea in theory but in practice it seems the opposite, creating two tiers of renters.

Rent control is a bad idea in theory as well. A theoretical solution to the problem that can deliver the promises of rent control is if the government guarantees housing for the desired price.

The reason why it works is because the government is forced to change laws that prevent the construction it just promised. It's about accountability rather than the promise itself.

The reason why rent control doesn't work is because the government can enact or keep laws that restrict the supply of housing. There is no accountability. It's actually equivalent to censorship. If you want the housing market to look good, just ban bad news (high prices).

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#799

Post by joshuaissac » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #431

titanomachy wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many developed countries, 42% tax would cover healthcare, a pension you can actually live off of, and fully-paid education for all of your children. Californians get none of those things, and I don't really understand what it is that they get over (e.g.) Washingtonians for the extra ~30% in taxes.

They get protection by the US military and promotion of Californian business interests throughout the world through Federal institutions. Not to mention: friction free access to a large labor pool and US domestic market etc. I get your point that the US doesn’t provide as much social services as other developed nations. Almost all these nations depend on US hegemony to not have to spend as much on their military. Thi…

> They get protection by the US military and promotion of Californian business interests throughout the world through Federal institutions. Not to mention: friction free access to a large labor pool and US domestic market etc.

And Washingtonians do not? What you wrote does not address the question that the parent poster asked.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#800

Post by thorin » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 1:43 PM UTC

UK Here. Keep salary how it is, give me free education including University (as we had 10 years ago), give us free healthcare (which we're clinging onto), give us decent pensions (which have got a lot worse over the last couple of decades), give us affordable housing. Let us choose our work location, so we don't have to commute to London or anywhere (COVID may actually improve this!).

Unfortunately UK doesn't highly value technical skills - real engineers (civil, electric, mechanical) are even worse off. To improve things many have been forced to go to Asia, US or Germany.

It would be nice to earn more as a SE, but not without retaining the stuff in the first list.