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Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

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Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#781
post #770
post #80

Lots of great comments here; My thoughts on this as other Seniors have pointed out (and I am a Senior myself) 1- I have not looked for a job since 2014, every job since came through my network. Then the interviews were basically friendly meet&greets but super informal, not a single coding test or take home assignment - note than I always started as Tech lead/Architect. I put in the hours and took pride in my work, ha…

I hear the “pay folks for their time” thing a lot, and have even done it. But for a senior engineer / architect level role, how is $100/hr meaningful in your mind? Just as a show of good faith? If you’re senior (and hence have been in this market the last 10 years) $100/hr wouldn’t seem to move the needle.

The money itself likely won't make a dent, IMO it's more on the good faith. "We understand you're busy and your time is valuable, and since we want you to do this work we will compensate you"

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#782
post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case I think we really do need the software engineering equivalent of the bar exam, as another commenter suggested.

It'd probably just create new problems. After all, degrees are supposedly regulated by governments already, but they aren't doing it properly. Why would some state-issued license be any better? In theory, if there was demand for it the private sector could fix this by issuing certifications. In practice certifications aren't especially useful or well recognized, as the sort of people with the best skills don't see an…

American degrees are decidedly not regulated by government. Professional groups and accreditation agencies perhaps, but not having a professional certification doesn't prevent a university from granting said degree. It's just one that some companies may not accept

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#783
post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a "senior" (I was 55 when I started looking), and I didn't have a "network," because I was a manager, and wanted to get back into technical stuff (I'm very good at technical stuff, but I was paid to manage). I had a network of pretty heavy-duty people, but they all knew me as a manager, and I didn't want to put them on the spot for technical stuff, since that wasn't how they knew me. That basically meant that I h…

Happy for you, but this is an oddly cynical take. Just because you are 55, you don't get special treatment. If you're interviewing for Staff or Senior Staff positions (assuming that's the role, with your years of experience), it would be discrimination if someone else was subjected to a different interview process than yours.

Well, if you interview senior staff, with the same techniques you use to interview junior staff, don’t be surprised, at the results.

I interviewed senior engineers (for a marquee corporation), for 25 years. I have some actual experience, here.

I never made any technical mistakes. Everyone I hired was technically, up to snuff.

The mistakes tended to be in how they worked in the team.

> it would be discrimination if someone else was subjected to a different interview process than yours.

And I really have to take exception to this. Every interview I ever did, was tailored to the applicant. There's absolutely no legal basis for this stance. There's a few "obvious" discriminatory things ("All our girls start in the typing pool," etc.), but people aren't cookies, and "cookie cutter" interview processes are for "cookie" positions. Our HR was very clear on what did, and did not, count as legally discriminatory behavior. HR was run by the Corporate General Counsel, and we managers were required to understand the legal ramifications of our duties.

The OP was talking about senior staff. These are folks that will have Responsibility for significant projects, will need to act as leaders and mentors, and will be the ones to take "point" on the corporate brand and public profile.

Treating them as "cookies" is, in my opinion, less than wise.

If you pit me against some kid, right out of college, that has been spending three hours (of their current employer's time), every day, for the last month, practicing leetcode, you'll get someone that is very good at doing quick, meaningless tests. It won't tell you much about how they'll perform in the breach, or when asked to architect a large-scale, heterogenous system (which is what I'm fairly good at). Not sure how un-discriminatory the process is, there...

In any case, it's all water under the bridge, now. A few companies didn't get me. I doubt that anyone is crying in their beer over it, and things turned out well, for me. All's well, that ends well, eh?

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#784
post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THANK YOU, THIS ^^^ Any company needing to "Test" me, is an instant sign of disrespect. It means you already don't trust me so I don't trust you. Now obviously there needs to be some accountability, and I think a 90 probationary period is a perfect compromise. When you are hiring senior talent, we aren't desperate or dying for your job. You need to sell it to us. You need to accommodate us. You need to make it easy f…

Entitled much? Instead of 4 hours of your time [0], you get to waste up to 90 days of an employer's? (or more likely some multiple of that, counting interactions with others on the team) [0] it probably takes even more of the employer's time in reviewing and discussing the application. Hiring sucks for all parties. Everyone should try to meet half way, and be respectful of the other's time.

But that's what I 'm saying. Don't waste my time, I didn't get to this high level job I'm in by being so stupid I can't write a ten line Python script. Interview me, ask what I've done, don't think your company is so advanced that nothing compares and you have to give basic skills tests to everyone. If a company thinks that at my level I might not have the skills I have demonstrated, I don't want to waste my time with that company. Entitled? Yes. I've earned it over the past 30 years.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#785
post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Happy for you, but this is an oddly cynical take. Just because you are 55, you don't get special treatment. If you're interviewing for Staff or Senior Staff positions (assuming that's the role, with your years of experience), it would be discrimination if someone else was subjected to a different interview process than yours.

Well, if you interview senior staff, with the same techniques you use to interview junior staff, don’t be surprised, at the results. I interviewed senior engineers (for a marquee corporation), for 25 years. I have some actual experience , here. I never made any technical mistakes. Everyone I hired was technically, up to snuff. The mistakes tended to be in how they worked in the team. > it would be discrimination if s…

> I never made any technical mistakes. Everyone I hired was technically, up to snuff.

This itself would be a huge red flag in any interview process. If you think you never made any technical directions.

It's a false dichotomy to believe either tailor make the interview process or treat everyone like a college hire. Senior staff / staff positions also have a particular process, including writing exercises, explaining complex decisions, writing code, talking about system design and the various trade-offs.

> Every interview I ever did, was tailored to the applicant.

How do you make sure that your / someone else's biases don't creep into the interview if it's being tailor made.

What kind of diversity did you have at your previous job where the interviews were tailor made?

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#786
post #785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you interview senior staff, with the same techniques you use to interview junior staff, don’t be surprised, at the results. I interviewed senior engineers (for a marquee corporation), for 25 years. I have some actual experience , here. I never made any technical mistakes. Everyone I hired was technically, up to snuff. The mistakes tended to be in how they worked in the team. > it would be discrimination if s…

> I never made any technical mistakes. Everyone I hired was technically, up to snuff. This itself would be a huge red flag in any interview process. If you think you never made any technical directions. It's a false dichotomy to believe either tailor make the interview process or treat everyone like a college hire. Senior staff / staff positions also have a particular process, including writing exercises, explaining…

Hey, I won't engage.

I did well enough, so some very tough people kept me in my position for a long time.

When they finally rolled up my department, the person with the least tenure had a decade.

These were all senior-level C++ algorithm engineers. We did image processing pipelines for one of the most famous imaging companies on earth.

But feel free to judge me. You won't be alone.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#787
> (though salary isn't posted in the ad)

Might be the problem ...

> the work being a higher percentage non-code is what's causing us trouble

Might be another problem... are you recruiting a PM or a Software Eng ?

> - Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing

I've personnaly stopped doing those. Either they are very far off the job either too revealing. And generally taking way too much time.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#788
post #785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never made any technical mistakes. Everyone I hired was technically, up to snuff. This itself would be a huge red flag in any interview process. If you think you never made any technical directions. It's a false dichotomy to believe either tailor make the interview process or treat everyone like a college hire. Senior staff / staff positions also have a particular process, including writing exercises, explaining…

Hey, I won't engage. I did well enough, so some very tough people kept me in my position for a long time. When they finally rolled up my department, the person with the least tenure had a decade. These were all senior-level C++ algorithm engineers. We did image processing pipelines for one of the most famous imaging companies on earth. But feel free to judge me. You won't be alone.

You have victim mentality. Odds aren't stacked against you, most people in this industry don't care how old you are. Though statements like this show that you would be a hard person to work with: 1. There seems to be considerable resentment towards us older folks. 2. But feel free to judge me. You won't be alone.

You seem to be accusing companies and younger people of ageism, but I'm yet to hear a concrete example. From reading what you wrote, I can say it seems you seem to be exhibiting an adverse reaction to young people doing well.

> If you pit me against some kid, right out of college, that has been spending three hours (of their current employer's time), every day, for the last month, practicing leetcode, you'll get someone that is very good at doing quick, meaningless tests.

Not sure how you got to the conclusion that younger engineers are stealing time from their employers to leetcode.

I wish you the best, and hope you get a chance to analyze your biases.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#789

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you described is the "Ops" in "DevOps". A decade ago the people doing "Dev" work were different from the people doing "Ops" work. But then the "anyone can do anything and everyone should work on everything" trend arrived, and they invented the concept of "DevOps", meaning that the same people would now do both "Dev" and "Ops" work. Note that this description is entirely antithetical to your description "So that…

"A decade ago" Attaching a time horizon on things which evolve causes many things to lose meaningful perspective relative to the discussion at hand. The fact that things evolve does not negate my opinion that DevOps is a meaningful term. Heck, I am currently watching the "That DevOps Guy" youtube channel (~50k subscribers) in order to learn about Helm Charts (related to kubernetes). Clearly, people use the term DevOp…

I don't have any issue with language evolving and words changing their meaning over time. If the term "DevOps" today simply meant "doing Ops in the cloud", I wouldn't have a problem with that. The word meant X a decade ago, and today it means Y, that's fine. But that's not the reality today. The reality is that a decade ago this term meant exclusively X, and today this term is ambiguous and sometimes refers to X and sometimes refers to Y. When someone talks about "DevOps" today, that term could mean almost anything. It conveys almost no meaning. In that sense the term has definitely "lost its meaning".

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#790

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put it another way, it may be selecting for the candidate who wants exactly this job and none other. Loyalty becomes the main criterion. I have mixed feelings about this, but I can see why employers might want this.

I agree, but "loyalty" doesn't sound like the right word. If a company demands you run an arbitrarily long and unpleasant obstacle course without any goal or criteria just because they asked you, what they are looking for is subservience.

Fair.

I was trying to be charitable. :)

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