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Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

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Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#771

You have 650+ responses already, so I accept mine will be in the `/dev/null` of history. As somebody who has worked at startups, including a Y-Combinator startup. The I have experienced three primary hiring issues that are so common they are worth noting. 1. People presume startups are inherently less stable than larger corporations. Risk aversion and the presumption that larger organizations are more stable in all c…

Actually I'm reading all the replies :). I agree with you very much that a real issue is myths that simply aren't true, or aren't universally true - working hours in particular.

Also compiling?

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#772

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite understand. On the one hand you're saying that early employees should "demand market comp" and on the other you're saying that equity basically doesn't matter (and if you feel this way, it doesn't really make any sense to be joining a startup anyway). Are you conflating "compensation" with "salary"? "Market comp" for a good engineer with several years of experience in the Bay Area is something like 250k…

> Early-stage companies should offer sufficient equity such that their employees should in expectation earn at least the same as they would at a public company. That's the joke! Nobody comes remotely close to offering enough equity that their total comp is equivalent! Imagine a company that just raised a $1M seed round on convertibles at a $6M valuation cap. Now say they offer an "extremely generous" 2% equity packag…

When you offer 10% per employee, how many employees can you actually take on??

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#773
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why have I been told to begin your career at a startup, before you work at a big corp in order to "level up" your work environment? I took that advice and it has just left me starving for better compensation and, and am pretty lacking skills-wise. And now I'm still unfit to get an offer at the big tech corps, or even a chance for an interview.

There's only a narrow window in your life where many of the cons of working for a startup don't ruin you. That window happens to overlap with the beginning of your career. If you have the skill to make it into a big corp at the beginning of your career, you can do it again later in your career -- they'll still be there later. I'm of the opinion that the generalist skill set you typically get from a startup is far mor…

I agree -- to an extent.

Some of the skills learned in big mature organisations tend to be very narrow and specific to the tools that the big organisation uses.

Some ... but not all.

The man-management and general engineering skills are still pretty transferable.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#774

I was the first engineer at a TechStars startup that did have a successful exit (I was there about 5 years before the exit). If there is something I want YC to know, it's this: You helped create the culture of founder empowerment. You have the power to evolve that narrative to those that sacrifice as early employees. Tell the world that early employees deserve a lot more equity. Tell the world that early employees co…

Maybe engineers are more replaceable than founders? That would explain why founders walk away with a lot more cash and credit. After all, there are a lot of good engineers who probably would do a good job as an early employee. And relatively few people who have the vision, motivation, and skill to create a successful company. That said, I sometimes feel that being a successful founder has less to do with skill and mo…

I agree, especially on your last point. Even when I think of my own career highs and lows, most of the highs has to do with lucking out with being given a chance or opportunity. By contrast, most of the lows has to with being denied a chance or opportunity. Of course you have to take advantage of any opportunity and work hard for it to pay off. But being lucky enough to be in the RPART is, huge!

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#775

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also the developer !== developer problem. I've worked with terrible developers, developers I'd trust to maybe write a blog for my cat, developers I'd trust on an important system but they all called themselves developers. The old joke used to be "You know what they call the guy with the lowest passing grade in his medical school? Doctor".

I'm excited by projects like http://darklang.com/ that are looking to make basic development more widely accessible, rather than requiring esoteric skilled labor mostly done by people who don't actually have the skills involved. It would be great if the industry got to the point that people coming out of school could be a net positive.

That project looks interesting.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#776
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I review the Joel Test occasionally, even if some of the items are kinda dated. It's amusing how both big companies and startups consistently fail two of them (and the test says if you're at 10/12 or lower there are serious problems). 8. Do programmers have quiet working conditions? 9. Do you use the best tools money can buy? Startups could out-compete larger companies here by providing both shared working space and…

"... programmers are easily bribed by giving them the coolest, latest stuff. This is a far cheaper way to get them to work for you than actually paying competitive salaries!" Past time (20 years ago) programmers yes. Today's programmers? No. The Math is very simple: if a company throws a lot of money, I can buy the latest coolest stuff for the next 10 years. I doubt programmer is that gullible (otherwise they're prob…

Past time (20 years ago) programmers yes. Today's programmers? No.

The economics of hardware are very different now. In the 90s you might have a SPARCstation or an SGI on your desk at work, amazing gear you could never have afforded for yourself. Now you can easily buy a home PC that’s better than any corporate model.

I’m sure it’s still true in some industries, 3D printing maybe, but not in software anymore.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#777

-A perspective from Chicago- Early stage engineer at startups (including a unicorn): pros: Fun work, you learn a ton, unlimited PTO (if you can actually use it), lavish benefits like free lunch, decent company culture, opportunities to try new things. cons: Poor work life balance, low chance of a bonus, low equity if any, poor management/leadership, lots of hand wavey bs about being number 1, poor career progression,…

Maybe Glassdoor and Angellist are not good sources but nowhere have I found any kind of jobs with that level of compensation. Then again, 100k-250k is a HUGE range and I imagine the distribution is heavily skewed towards the lower end.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#778

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are not Google and not Silicon Valley. Try: http://www.h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Google&job=Staff+Softwa... And keep in mind that base salary (what's reported on that page) is usually about half of total compensation. (Bonus and stock being the other half.) Also this appears to be the H1B database. I'm not sure how H1B salaries compare to the overall average.

> I'm not sure how H1B salaries compare to the overall average. H1B salaries are typically lower than average. Why do you think companies spend millions lobbying for more H1Bs? To pay them more than average? :-) Also, keep in mind Google only has to disclose base salaries for these H1Bs. For a staff engineer, most of the total comp would be in bonus pay and especially RSUs. They can easily be making $400k or more thr…

Do you have evidence that people coming on an H1B visa get paid less than their non-H1B coworkers (at same level / same seniority / same office) at Google?

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#779

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Early-stage companies should offer sufficient equity such that their employees should in expectation earn at least the same as they would at a public company. That's the joke! Nobody comes remotely close to offering enough equity that their total comp is equivalent! Imagine a company that just raised a $1M seed round on convertibles at a $6M valuation cap. Now say they offer an "extremely generous" 2% equity packag…

Yes, I mostly agree. There's one nuance that I've been thinking about lately that I haven't seen anyone ever point out before, which is that high volatility will make options worth more than they are on paper. Here's a thought experiment: imagine that there are two employers on the market. One will always pay 200k/yr guaranteed and you can choose to work for them at any time for this wage. The other pays 100k/yr plus…

I think that's a good point, but it's just unlikely to actually happen with startup options because of the typical 90-day exercise clause and limited information.

The 90-day exercise clause and options instead of shares effectively forces you to buy the coconut, meaning that instead of a 50/50 chance of 0/200, if you plan on leaving before the event that resolves 0/200, then if your strike price on a coconut is $50, it's more like 50/50 chance of -50/250 because you expect to have to exercise when you leave. You can play with the exercise cost, but it does change your math quite a bit regardless. Now if startups gave actual stock instead of options or if they don't place a 90-day time limit on exercising vested options, this wouldn't be an issue. But almost all startups do it this way.

The second point is that the company often doesn't look dead until much later. You're just not going to be able to tell one year in, or two years in, or three years in. So you won't be in a good position to capitalize on volatility like you would on the public markets.

Then you have things like liquidation preferences that will skew your EV calculation, except they might happen after you join, but you may or may not ever find out that those gotchas are there.

As it stands, all of this just creates an incredibly inefficient market that requires employees to take badly informed, high risk bets, where they often don't have deep enough pockets to absorb the risk.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#780
post #372

I was the first engineer at a TechStars startup that did have a successful exit (I was there about 5 years before the exit). If there is something I want YC to know, it's this: You helped create the culture of founder empowerment. You have the power to evolve that narrative to those that sacrifice as early employees. Tell the world that early employees deserve a lot more equity. Tell the world that early employees co…

What's an "early employee" for you? (That is, who gets "a lot more equity?") I ask because I've noticed with some high-dollar acquisitions a lot of times "engineer #50" makes his/her "F-You Money" on the acquisition, but having been "engineer #2" and "#4" and even "#1" (sadly, no big exits) I am skeptical that #50 took on much more risk or contributed more than, say, #200.

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