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Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

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761–770 of 830 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people work far less than they ever did before Sure, if you look at the last 150 years, but the data you linked is basically flat since 1980: over the last 30 years in the United States, working hours are down 2%.

Yeah, if anything that chart highlights how workers in the US are getting screwed compared to countries like Germany on number of hours worked. They're working only about 77% as many hours, on average.

Yea, really screwed. Choosing the top country by least hours worked is not appropriate as a baseline. Look at Mexico, or any Asian country besides Japan. They work their asses off compared to Americans.

Meanwhile software engineers in the U.S. make more than twice their German counterparts' salary: https://www.google.com/amp/s/codesubmit.io/blog/software-eng...

Of course, not everyone is a software engineer. But it doesn't seem surprising there would be a correlation between fewer hours worked and lower salaries, likely because employers who are able to pick countries to hire from will avoid those where individual workers do the least amount of work.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#762
I totally get you and am very confused about all the comments here labeling you as a hardcore WFO nazi. I guess you really hit a sensitive spot here.

I'm always very torn between WFH and WFO because both have immense upsides and downsides and I can't really tell which I'm rooting more for. I also don't want to discuss these because it'll lead to nowhere.

> But are those really the majority? I always saw tech as the field where a disproportionally large amount of people truly love what they do. Mostly, because it takes so much grit and persistence to get good at it that most people wouldn't succeed unless they see something in it beyond putting food on the table.

Just wanted to comment that I somehow feel the same (also a fellow German) if I would've to spend 8 hours a day as a big part of my life with something I don't care about or have some kind of passion I would get depressed and immediately change profession or look for the things I enjoy and try to earn money that way.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#763
Managers have been saying "this" since the early 2000. (I am bascially remote only for more than 14 years of my carreer total).

Don't take it the wrong way: it's you. You are looking for friends.

You dont have to "slave at the digital conveyor belt" you are there to work. You are not there to substitute your private live.

Now what im not saying is that during your 8 work hours your arms and feet should form a rotating disc, but you know -its work-

And further more, ESPECIALLY IN BERLIN, people dont like remote workers too much and i have a list of startups in my linkedin, who would like it very much that i would be there in person.

Most of us are extremely happy that we can work from home that we DO NOT have to endulge the Self centered manager who after working 10 hours straight, would like you to have dinner with them because they are bored(and you agree because of social protocol and future potential maybe promotions).

Remote working is not dodging the commute, that is only really tiny part of it. Remote working is cutting out all the bullshit and focusing, you know, on the work.

While freelancing you go through a lot of clients over the years and would you like to know when we waste the most time? In the onboarding phase where a (middle) manger is checking out if you have actually not fallen on your head as a child.

Finally adressing the "face on the screen that can be replaced" imagery: you can be replaced as a person too. Just because you phsycially hang around somewhere does not mean you are any safer if you do not perform.

There is no gold at the end of your remote working rainbow, because you are actually looking for friends, which naturally works better in person.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#764
post #52

> I used to love going to the office. I hated going to office (and that's why I stopped doing it like 20 years ago). But it's not a case of one of us being right and the other wrong, it's just that some people are more extrovert, and some are more introvert, and we simply don't enjoy the same things. Now, being introvert doesn't mean I hate other people. I actually enjoy in daily interactions with my colleagues, and…

> But it's not a case of one of us being right and the other wrong, it's just that some people are more extrovert, and some are more introvert, and we simply don't enjoy the same things.

I don't think the separation is across the intro/extra-version line. I'm an introvert and I strongly prefer the office over remote.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#765
post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I noticed my hearing was getting worse since in office I kept increasing music volume in (futile) attempts to block out chatterboxes at the next desk. Destroying your health is not worth whatever faster promotions in-office work promises.

Noise canceling headphones?

Some earplug and chuck white noise on top is what I did once. My issue is it is uncomfortable.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#766
It might be an age thing. 20-35 ish might be more fun to be in the office, making friends, etc.

After that people have kids or just might want friends seperate from work.

So what seems great to you might be meh for other people, and then you pile on commute, office noise, no privacy etc.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#767

I think a lot of this boils down to kids vs no kids. I really enjoyed working in the office when I didn't have kids. Hanging out with coworkers after work was pretty normal, and sometimes my wife would come along too. We're still good friends with a lot of my old coworkers. In fact, those are the people we hang out with now. But now that I have kids I'd rather spend time with them or on my hobbies with them or hangin…

FWIW, I have kids and strongly prefer going into the office. Keeps my home life and work life separate and when I am home it is easier to be in the mental space of being with the family. When I worked from home for the first 18 months of the pandemic, I lost that separation and it was stressful.

Yes, Very hard to solve that bug with a toddler throwing tantrum to gnaw on a raw eggplant.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#768

I don't depend on work for my social life and never really did. If I want to hang out with people I do so with my close non-work friends, or go to an event or something else. I enjoy the people I work with but I don't aim for them to be my close friends.

Why does the WFH crowd always assume the those who prefer WFO are relying on work for a social life? Does it make them feel better about being anti-social shut-ins?

I merely responded to OP who multiple times said that the WFH crowd are anti-social and people hating. Moreover they asked what they're not understanding about the WFH crowd from a socializing perspective and I responded.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#769

If you wonder why an argument might be controversial, it can helpful to imagine how it would sound like in mirror world: Assume for a moment that working remotly and a flexible workday would have been always the default. And now some companies decide: Hey let's contractually enforce a 9 hour continuous workday where all our workers will be locked in a big ugly building that we build just for that purpose (Btw. at lea…

That’s not at all helpful and in fact it’s confusing.

Going to a place of work is the status quo with one of the exceptions being bubbles in IT. Some offices are nice, some not. Some are within walking distance, others are not.

You are not locked in to your office unless you work in a literal sweatshop. The lunch hour is a legal right in Europe.

It’s your task to check that you have a reasonable commute before accepting a contract. Why should a company care that you picked a job on the other end of the city?

Jesus, I can’t believe how spoiled and entitled so many people are. But that will resolve itself once remote developers start getting replaced with cheaper workers which can develop apps or websites just as well.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#770
post #87

If you wonder why an argument might be controversial, it can helpful to imagine how it would sound like in mirror world: Assume for a moment that working remotly and a flexible workday would have been always the default. And now some companies decide: Hey let's contractually enforce a 9 hour continuous workday where all our workers will be locked in a big ugly building that we build just for that purpose (Btw. at lea…

Disclaimer: I support fully remote work and will likely never be returning to office in my lifetime if I can help it. Here I play devil's advocate. Even though it is a hypothetical world you've constructed, you still framed it from the perspective of this world. I can do the same thing you did with a different bias. Imagine a world where everyone is socially isolated, forced to work 8 hours a day from their living sp…

You make some good points, but...

> They're not allowed to have social in-person contact with any of their peers

I don't think any companies with remote work policies enforce a 'no in-person contact' policy.

> they must login to show activity on their computer every 15 minutes or else be fired

I don't think most companies have this policy.

> An amazing centralized place where you can take frequent breaks to have social interaction with your peers.

Those companies with strict policies on activity monitoring for home workers are unlikely to allow 'frequent' breaks. The few short breaks you have are mostly spent in the toilet, or queuing to buy coffee.

> Need to get in touch with Bill? Just stroll over to his desk.

Have we asked Bill how he feels about this :D

> We'll even feed you for free, and you can play ping-pong on your breaks, [and we'll give you a] standing desk!

Relatively few companies do this.

Your framing is heavily subjective and seems to contrast the best, employee-friendly companies' in-person benefits with the worst micromanaging companies' remote work drawbacks.

OP's framing is less subjective. Although the number of hours, the paid vs. unpaid lunch break, and the ugliness of the building do vary, the principles are broadly more objective.

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