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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#751

Post by forty »

alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

Exactly. A company I know well had to lay off people in France and in the US. People in France keep almost their full wages for a whole year, and the medical insurance for free for a year. I hope the ones in the US find a job quicky and that their higher salary can cover any (medical) cost in the meantime. I would not be so sure.

Lower wages for this amount of security seems a great deal to me.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#752

Post by trumpeta »

sajithdilshan wrote: post #668
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

> I got here by taking no risk at all. This is the most European thing I've ever heard. Most people would not like to take risks and would not even think about stepping outside of their comfort zone. Personally, I think this is the reason why there are less startups in Europe compared to US. No one would like to take a risk unless it's absolutely necessary. > I have worked 20 years in the same job and so have my coll…

> I got here by taking no risk at all. > This is the most European thing I've ever heard. Most people would not like to take risks and would not even think about stepping outside of their comfort zone.

In some sense this is true, but lets not get carried away. The American Startupism is all about the flash, big growth, big impact, big IPO. In EU you have companies slowly grinding a hard problem for 20 years that also have huge impact but no flashy news. Look at things like vertical farming, ASLR, fintech. Thats all thanks to low risk and stability.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#753

Post by thargor »

knuthsat wrote: post #488
benjaminl wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget the 10.25% sales tax. This puts the combined marginal tax rate at 59.85%. (24 + 9.3 + 7.65 + 7.65 + 1 + 10.25)

In Croatia the total would be about 63%. If you go through capital gains (no paycheck just profit after corporate tax, capital income tax and VAT) it's 53%. It could go down if some company expenses can be used for your life expenses. In Austria the total is 75%. In Austria going through capital gains would still be 70%. I'm very disappointed at how much money Europe sucks out of my work.

I call bullshit on the tax rate in Austria.

"Capital gains" through GmbH is 25% KÖSt (Körperschaftssteuer) and then 27,25% KESt on Profit. The highest VAT rate is 20%, there are also lower ones. This results in 56.35% percent including VAT (1-((1-25%)(1-27.25%)(1-20%)).

If you go through income tax as a freelancer this is even lower when you claim the default deductibles (Pauschalierung), which is common in IT jobs, because you have very low expenses. The later is also cheaper if you factor in health insurance.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#754

Post by throwawayin12 »

seltzered_ wrote: post #68
friedman23 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you've fully thought through your position. You making less isn't some altruistic thing. You making less directly contributes to your (already likely wealthy) boss making more. It's not like you making less means the poor live better lives, it's essentially donating money to your employer.

There's cultural differences here depending on where the employer is based. I believe the employee-CEO pay gap is substantially less for many European companies (excluding UK).

Right, they only own one Porsche here and a few houses.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#755

Post by Aeolun »

vatican_banker wrote: post #437
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

> I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could [...] I have worked 20 years in the same job and so have my colleagues. Honestly this part of the European mentality is hard for an outsider understand. I lived there for ~10 years and heard this argument countless times. I want a fulfilling life and part of that is a fulfilling job. It's hard to believe a job on the same company can be fulfilli…

> It's hard to believe a job on the same company can be fulfilling for 20+ years.

In my experience, the only companies I’ve been in where all my coworkers were first class was in the Netherlands.

I cannot see myself working 20 years in the same company in the US or Japan, but I think I can see myself doing it in the Netherlands.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#756

Post by 2rsf »

brianmcc wrote: post #698
agilob wrote: post #585

Europe doesn't have Amerikan Dream fallacy, that by moving to a country you become rich if you work hard enough, we also don't go bankrupt after breaking a leg twice in 5 years. Worst student debt you can get is in the UK, its fees are capped at £9k for each academic year. I paid off my student debt in 4 years after graduation, while financially supporting my family and saving for a house in top5 biggest city, which…

I don't think Americans really comprehend the shock and horror that many of us feel about the state of their healthcare and the lack of vacation time, or other European norms such as maternity/paternity time or sick pay. 100% Would Not Swap. Compulsory nit-pick that not all UK nations charge tuition fees to their residents btw :-)

And more nit picking, some countries in Europe don't charge at all for higher education

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#757

Post by csomar »

oaiey wrote: post #509
kodah wrote: post #191

Europeaners seem to think getting by is just fine. They're happy that they're hyper educated, that their kids are going to be hyper educated, that their healthcare is paid for, and they get lots of vacation. Because you can't save, you are entirely dependent, in a broader sense, on the government's stability (I am not using this sentiment in a pejorative sense like some might.) Americans want their fair share of the…

> Because you can't save, you are entirely dependent, in a broader sense, on the government's stability Do not bet on your money when your government goes down. In the current situation (China raises, switching of federal reserves from the Dollar to a more diverse bucket, a US Capitol invaded), the dollar went down from its 100% safety in the 90s to a shaky 90% currently. And that can spiral quickly when something ra…

Imo, the US dollar will remain the world reserve currency and the safest thing as long as the US military remain the most powerful. Sure, EU politics could be more stable but they can't defend against threats (Russia).

Also, I don't think many people, countries and businesses are going to trust China. They have a bad track record especially in crypto (detaining CEOs, freezing money, etc...). Everybody else is too small to matter (ie: New Zealand, Emirates, etc...).

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#758

Post by beagle3 »

ginko wrote: post #694
jtwaleson wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France is really terrible in terms of SWE compensation. I think I know why. I've had some traineeship / internship requests from French students and their mentality seems so much more like "engineering" career trajectory than "hacker". Engineer: "yes, of course it is normal to be a trainee for 2 years, then a junior for 5, then a medior for 5 and of I'm really good I'll be a senior. I would be really thankful if you…

I'd rather work with the 'engineer' than the 'hacker'.

I've worked with quite a few people who had "15 years of experience" which would be better described as "one year of experience practiced 15 times".

The main thing that such an internship-apprenticeship system guarantees is that the newer generation is well-versed in the ways of the old generation, and will likely have a similar record.

In a conservative industry, such as civil engineers building bridges, roads and buildings, and electrical engineers building high-voltage electrical distribution systems, this is what you want -- those industries have converged on good safety records. You want a few people who innovate, but otherwise much prefer to delay the future by 10-20 years than to the potential risks of bringing it sooner.

If the same was prevalent in software, we'd likely still be coding in COBOL on IBM mainframes.

Tesla is a very interesting case study - actually managing to bring the future sooner (with relatively small accumulated damage so far) in a field where being conservative is considered a virtue.

If you'd rather work with the apprenticed person, this model still exists in banks, who are willing to pay big bucks to maintain their cobol backends.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#759

Post by [deleted] »

qwytw wrote: post #657
sverhagen wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being from the Netherlands, I recognize this shame. High positions in the workforce are often shamed, talked about as "easy money", as if it's inherently corrupt, people don't acknowledge their risks and responsibilities. Whether that warrants those high salaries or not, I'm not commenting on that debate. Public functions or private organizations in which the government invests, must cap salaries at what the prime mi…

And yet Netherlands has the highest wealth inequality in the world ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_eq... ) so one could interpret this cap and the cultural attitude you described as pretty much a scam by the capital owning class to maximize their returns.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#760

Post by kharak »

killtimeatwork wrote: post #725
pavlov wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a European living in USA working for a FAANG. Frankly, my assessment is exactly the opposite from yours. United States is the country that's most likely to go to shit. All of us wealthy professionals here are sitting on a powder keg of inequality and delusional politics, and nobody will be decoupled from it when it blows up. I plan to stay for a few more years, then return to my safe North European home country w…

Most of Western/Westernized world is going to shit. Western Europe and Japan in particular have terrible demographics, which means that, unless some miracle happens (like a massive influx of immigrants who integrate well and become productive members of society), that less and less working people will have to maintain more and more non-working population. Obviously, it will lead to radical decrease of standard of liv…

Do you have link to that recording?
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