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Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

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Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#731
post #639

The same could be asked about upper management. They earn 10x our pay, so their output is 10x more value than our work, and they work 10x harder, right? In our normal 8 hour work day, they must work 80 hours. Except a full day is 24 hours. Why is the onus always on the bottom workers to be honest? Why are we trying to feel guilty about our working hours vs how much we're paid? Because it's clear salary is not tied to…

I'm not upper management. Most upper management gets paid way too much for the value they bring. But, when you have the opportunity to work under an excellent CEO or CTO you will learn that they do bring 10x or even 100x the value you bring to the team.

Agree with your second statement. I work at a semiconductor startup. Both the CEO and the CTO are excellent folks. Kind, extremely competent, hardworking, and reasonable; I love my time spent interacting with them.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#732
As a developer I've been on both sides with my current 10-years experience. Not largest, but enough to make certain conclusions. And yeah, I do like being software developer, I like both coding, "solving challenging problems" and product-related work.

I would say I don't really support "You still work8h by thinking while you sleep" - while it's generally true, I think it somewhat shifts the point. I know that other day you event can't sleep since you mind is still boiling with processing. But there's other point.

In my younger ages I was completely consumed by work. Startups, 12-hours coding runs for weeks, constant learning, all that stuff. That was physically draining, but I had enough resource to accommodate that & still was enjoyed.

Later that resulted in ... surprise... burnout. Reasons are out of the scope, that's more related to personal traits. Still, after few years I've changed patterns. On the other hand, there's way less things to learn now. Not I mean there's not enough new tech, but once you know a lot of basics, you can learn necessary things on-demand easily, and just learn what's really interesting. And about same time I started working remotely.

With that, I've spend no more that 6 hours in a work, not more than 2-3 hours coding (with some occasional spikes with full-day coding once you have a very good vision how large project piece fits together). That was more than enough to be one of top contributors in ~100-people dev team. With good basement you spend less time on being blocked by some unexpected stupid things, and productivity grows. And there was lot of chatting, somewhat repetitive meeting, but that doesn't add much to the output.

Later with few job switches and with a lot life changes (wife, family, 2 kids) I've stopped at 2-3 hours coding plain in a more focused team, with minimal volume of meetings, and that works fine so far. With way more time left for other life.

As a developer I still know there's a lot of things can be done. There's always a lot of plumbing, a lot of "nice to have" features where (if I spend those extra 4-5 hours) I could deliver a lot of extra effort & results into sky. And I appreciate people who do that. While working in Yandex I've seen people way smarter than me processing dozens of tasks a day, making me feel uncomfortable about my productivity.

Still, that's my choice. I deliver quite good result which is appreciated. I estimate a week to implement feature which I could previously estimate as "I can implement it in 24 hours" (without a sleep). I choose to live more fulfilled live with my kids, my wife, friends, with more joy - and I'm glad to do that to common benefit.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#733

> Do people regularly run into coworkers like me during their career and simply ignore it because they find it too awkward to criticize them? Have I just been incredibly lucky and every boss I have had is too incompetent to notice? Do I have imposter syndrome and I am actually a 10x developer whose laziness makes them a 1x developer? Lazy developers don't really bother me, if you do a couple hours of high-quality wor…

so many of us are patting ourselves on the back right now :\

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#735

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point is the compensation is not based on how hard you work but the value you provide and what the market will support. Of course upper management works roughly the same hours as everyone else, but they also have far more responsibility.

In my last two jobs I fail to see that my employer got more value out of me than the expenses of paying me.

don't feel too bad. There are a lot of CEOs that get $20M salaries for doing nothing. If the company succeeds due to market conditions they are seen as heroes- if the company fails for market conditions they are seen as losers. They may have some impact but mostly its luck.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#736

In the last year or two, I have not "worked" more than 1-2 hours a day on average--some days for a grand total of zero hours. The quote/unquote is not there by accident. I manage a team and some projects, and most of the time I let other people do the technical work while I get to chat with higher ups or give some general direction on where the work should go. I consider myself very competent in my field even though…

Can you say salary too?

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#737
post #639

The same could be asked about upper management. They earn 10x our pay, so their output is 10x more value than our work, and they work 10x harder, right? In our normal 8 hour work day, they must work 80 hours. Except a full day is 24 hours. Why is the onus always on the bottom workers to be honest? Why are we trying to feel guilty about our working hours vs how much we're paid? Because it's clear salary is not tied to…

I'm not upper management. Most upper management gets paid way too much for the value they bring. But, when you have the opportunity to work under an excellent CEO or CTO you will learn that they do bring 10x or even 100x the value you bring to the team.

> But, when you have the opportunity to work under an excellent CEO or CTO you will learn that they do bring 10x or even 100x the value you bring to the team.

The same can be told about OP who claimed that they work 5-10 hours a week but their performance reviews have consistently ranged from mediocre to great. The point is, the hours you work is not an indicator for the value you bring to the team.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#738
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding my voice to this one. I think a lot of work 'normal people' i.e. the PMs the non-technical management, the sales people etc. really don't get how we techies work. Because they have to do 'active' work all day long to keep on top, they think everyone is like that, where in reality we are really efficient in short bursts. I can ponder a deliverable for days and then just churn it out over a few hours, only takin…

And, ironically, much of the work that the "normies" do is something tech guys could to hundred times faster. It's stuff like manually copy-pasting numbers from a crappy proprietary software A to a crappy proprietary software B or entering numbers from some system to Excel while it could be done by just directly pulling the numbers from the database the system uses. Seriously, modern work is all about knowing what to…

Hmmmmm, this is actually kind of interesting - perhaps that "continuous grind through criminally unoptimized UI" type of work is what actually constructs the "this is how you use a computer" mindset that these people have - because it's all they know.

Developers are always about optimization and automation and tweaking and refinement, and their tools reflect this constant pursuit of efficiency that constantly transcends and questions how a job is expressed (UI, mental modeling) and completed.

No other industry - ironically including technical management roles (maybe even especially so?) - seems to have this sort of focus.

I even hesitantly wonder if the biggest similarity I've ever seen is with accessibility type setups with screen readers and whatnot. (Ha, that says a lot about the fundamental impedance mismatch of developer tooling!)

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#739
post #5

Imagine a security guard at an office building. 90% of the time might be sitting in a booth watching monitors. The other 10% of the time is buzzing people in or making rounds. But that 90% of the time when they are sitting around is important, since they are on call. So you are like a security guard. Your employer gladly pays you for the 90% of the time you are doing nothing, because they need the comfort of having a…

Like most analogies, this one fails completely. It's well-understood that the security guard does nothing but stay alert 99% of the time. He very explicitly needs to "do nothing" for long stretches of time. Software development operates largely on trust that everyone on the team is putting in real effort. The manager trusts that when it takes you a week to finish a task, it's because it actually took a week of work,…

everyone at the company would almost certainly like to move faster

Not necessarily true. This is certainly the case at a startup, but at a more established BigCorp, things move slowly, and the ability of an engineer to work at a slower pace is an asset. You may be waiting on legal approval for weeks or months, or a software review from infosec, signoff from finance on integration testing for a new payment processor, or any number of processes that are not banging out code as quickly as possible (these are all actual examples from my company). In these cases, you shouldn't have to BS your way through a standup, but you will have times where a week goes by and you haven't written a single line of code, and that is exactly what the job requires.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#740
post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well put! I work in consulting for a large corporation and they pay for me more than 1000 Euro per day. I don't see much of that money but I can't really complain about my salary. It's pretty good (not SV-good, though). Now on average I'd say I work no more than 4 hours. Some days even less. Occasionally I feel proud of that and even brag about it to friends. But deep down I feel how this is just not making me happy.…

I used to work about 4 hours a day, sometimes not at all and felt terrible inside about myself. Then I got diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed Concerta. The focus is not what I want, but the reduction of impulsivity is doing wonders. I started seeing the incompetent, manipulative and rude pieces of shit colleagues that I kept attracting (because of self immage and guilt) and that kept leaching on my time, interrupting…

Concerta is a godsend, so is actually discovering you've got ADHD - as answers on what was "wrong" with you your whole life will be found.

I would encourage the OP to investigate this; the hyper focused mind can achieve greatness once finally in the groove. Finding this flow state can be very hard.

The meds work. As does eg weightlifting. I've been far more successful since I spent the equivalent of a highest end smartphone on a fully barbell kitted garage gym.

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