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Ask HN: What is “full stack” actually?

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Re: Ask HN: What is “full stack” actually?

#71

Post by ethbro »

notacoward wrote: post #54
IgorPartola wrote: post #41

I define it in practical terms: can you start from scratch and deliver and maintain a product? This is a term that's often used to describe web or mobile development, so in this context I take it as being able to do things like platform setup and maintenance, write a backend, write a front-end, do the design, etc. This term really caught on with people who develop for the web because there actually is a divide here:…

Thank you. I'm sure a lot of people will say you don't really know some of that stuff, and they're kind of right, but it's always helpful to have a buffer of stuff you "kind of know" around the stuff you really know . That way you don't get lost as soon as you hit the boundary. You know which way to turn, how to recognize what's still relevant (to your original problem) vs. what's not, what phrases to search for if y…

Or to trot out the concise summary, a buffer of "kind of know" helps you know what you don't know. Which can be pretty darn useful.

Re: Ask HN: What is “full stack” actually?

#72

Post by [deleted] »

fit2rule wrote: post #61
Retric wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea how knowing databases or HTML is going to help someone write embedded code for RC controlled drone. And I am mystified by the idea that knowing ARM asm is going to help but a website, MMO, or tax prep software. At best full stack just means knowing one level deeper than necessary.

Obviously it means the stack YOU ARE USING, not all kinds of alternative wild technologies that are out there. If you are using something that depends on a database somewhere in the stack, then knowing how to administer that database is definitely something a 'full stack' developer, in that context, would need to be able to do.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: What is “full stack” actually?

#73

Post by Retric »

fit2rule wrote: post #61
Retric wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea how knowing databases or HTML is going to help someone write embedded code for RC controlled drone. And I am mystified by the idea that knowing ARM asm is going to help but a website, MMO, or tax prep software. At best full stack just means knowing one level deeper than necessary.

Obviously it means the stack YOU ARE USING, not all kinds of alternative wild technologies that are out there. If you are using something that depends on a database somewhere in the stack, then knowing how to administer that database is definitely something a 'full stack' developer, in that context, would need to be able to do.

So a C# .net developer should know what?

Basic .net developer: (1 or more JS frameworks ex: Angular), HTML, JavaScript, CSS, C#, .net, LINQ, ORM(nHibernate), XML, SQL, T-SQL, …

Full stack: That plus, basic network administration (TCP-IP, BGP, routing tables?), basic windows administration (installation, security, back, scripts, deployment, troubleshooting), basic IIS administration (setup, matinee, troubleshooting), basic DB administration (deployment, troubleshooting, backups, clustering, profiling etc.), basic team foundation server administration, ...

Then to get an actual job you should know exactly the correct stack, including whatever wacky tools the team likes…

PS: And people wonder why they have trouble finding good developers.

Re: Ask HN: What is “full stack” actually?

#74

Post by ethbro »

kohanz wrote: post #70
amirmc wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "So basically, if someone says "full stack", they likely mean that you can develop and run the entire product, not just a part of it." On the face of it, this sounds reasonable but it glosses over the fact that better tooling/frameworks/etc make it much easier to get started. If you use something like Parse/Heroku or their ilk, then you can get away with not having to know much about backend development (or the pro…

Not only is the stack narrowing, but most people who use the label "full-stack" have fixed the definition of that stack (the set of front-end and back-end components that they have experience with). So the complete definition would be "I'm a full-stack developer". To say "I'm a full-stack developer" without that context is meaningless and will inevitably be untrue.

> To say "I'm a full-stack developer" without that context is meaningless and will inevitably be untrue.

Well, couldn't one suppose that it's at least indicative of having touched the architectural groupings at each level.

Whether or not you find value in it (e.g. industry and academia being fairly divergent on this), having worked with a data store layer informs something about an ability to work with any data store layer.

Re: Ask HN: What is “full stack” actually?

#75

Post by ethbro »

ecaradec wrote: post #68
guan wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should really include hardware and electronics down to the transistor level, and higher level skills like UI, architecture, marketing.

it should really go down to quantum physic, thermodynamic and up to philosophy...

It all collapses down to a figment of my imagination anyway.

(Btw, now hiring full solipsist developers. I'll find you if I'm interested)

Re: Ask HN: What is “full stack” actually?

#76

Post by fit2rule »

Retric wrote: post #73
fit2rule wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously it means the stack YOU ARE USING, not all kinds of alternative wild technologies that are out there. If you are using something that depends on a database somewhere in the stack, then knowing how to administer that database is definitely something a 'full stack' developer, in that context, would need to be able to do.

So a C# .net developer should know what? Basic .net developer: (1 or more JS frameworks ex: Angular), HTML, JavaScript, CSS, C#, .net, LINQ, ORM(nHibernate), XML, SQL, T-SQL, … Full stack: That plus, basic network administration (TCP-IP, BGP, routing tables?), basic windows administration (installation, security, back, scripts, deployment, troubleshooting), basic IIS administration (setup, matinee, troubleshooting),…

Well, you may think that standards are too high, but on the flipside, yes: the expectation that you are able to deal with such a suite of tools is also out there. Maybe this reflects on the quality of the stack more than anything else - on the other hand, .Net and C# development is pitched as a reason to not have to know any of those things, too.

Re: Ask HN: What is “full stack” actually?

#77

Post by Retric »

fit2rule wrote: post #76
Retric wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So a C# .net developer should know what? Basic .net developer: (1 or more JS frameworks ex: Angular), HTML, JavaScript, CSS, C#, .net, LINQ, ORM(nHibernate), XML, SQL, T-SQL, … Full stack: That plus, basic network administration (TCP-IP, BGP, routing tables?), basic windows administration (installation, security, back, scripts, deployment, troubleshooting), basic IIS administration (setup, matinee, troubleshooting),…

Well, you may think that standards are too high, but on the flipside, yes: the expectation that you are able to deal with such a suite of tools is also out there. Maybe this reflects on the quality of the stack more than anything else - on the other hand, .Net and C# development is pitched as a reason to not have to know any of those things, too.

The problem IMO is out of the 100 or so developers I have worked with none of them fit that profile and IMO that's completely ok. Granted, I actually cover most of that except the networking side, and know a few other that come close. (Which is probably why I am standing up a continuous integration server today instead of actually coding.) But, it really just seems wasteful as the value of teams is they let people specialize.

Re: Ask HN: What is “full stack” actually?

#78

Post by angersock »

Retric wrote: post #52
collyw wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be full stack with various different stacks. I use LAMP, so I am pretty out of date with any .Net technologies. But I would consider myself full stack to an extent.

I have no idea how knowing databases or HTML is going to help someone write embedded code for RC controlled drone. And I am mystified by the idea that knowing ARM asm is going to help but a website, MMO, or tax prep software. At best full stack just means knowing one level deeper than necessary.

So, if you know a little HTML, you can write a simple diagnostic page for your drone, or a product page for it.

If you know a little SQL, you can throw a SQLlite database on the drone to easily track points and query the data of multiple drones being collected.

If you know ARM assembly, you can write optimized math routines for your MMO running on mobile clients, or on low-power boards in a server farm. Or figure out why your web server is crashing in weird ways on your server. Or why certain overflows in your tax software aren't being trapped.

"Full stack" means knowing about the rest of the tools so you can improve things beyond what CodeProject would let you do.

Re: Ask HN: What is “full stack” actually?

#79

Post by mcintyre1994 »

agentultra wrote: post #59

It should be called, full heap developer. /snark It's a pretty generic term watered down by its lack of concrete meaning. There are probably going to be a couple of hundred varying opinions and fifty or so disagreements about what it means before this post disappears off of the front page. To me this makes it a meaningless term and one I don't feel bad poking fun at. It's a term used by managers and start-ups to get…

Heap? Isn't it a stack because you only really remember what went on near the top? :)

Re: Ask HN: What is “full stack” actually?

#80

Post by fit2rule »

Retric wrote: post #77
fit2rule wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you may think that standards are too high, but on the flipside, yes: the expectation that you are able to deal with such a suite of tools is also out there. Maybe this reflects on the quality of the stack more than anything else - on the other hand, .Net and C# development is pitched as a reason to not have to know any of those things, too.

The problem IMO is out of the 100 or so developers I have worked with none of them fit that profile and IMO that's completely ok. Granted, I actually cover most of that except the networking side, and know a few other that come close. (Which is probably why I am standing up a continuous integration server today instead of actually coding.) But, it really just seems wasteful as the value of teams is they let people sp…

Nobody said everyone should be a full stack developer - just that more developers should consider the benefits of becoming more proficient with the layers of the stack with which they're not competent.
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