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Ask HN: Why you do open source?

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Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#71
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spending time with FUD and bile arguing against open source projects, now that's a waste of time. Complaining about licenses and inefficiencies is also a waste of time when it's done by people who are not directly involved in development. Compare that with exploring different paradigms and priorities (such as Postgres and Mysql who happen to have very different philosophies), which is absolutely OK in my book. Nobody…

PostgreSQL is appealing to professionals who have a solid understanding of relational theory, who have much experience creating, using and maintaining large, heavily-used and high-availability databases, and who can quite easily see the many flaws with lesser database systems. These are the kind of people who, knowing that better exists, will indeed speak out loudly against that which is inferior. You portray it as s…

You think flaming against software you don't happen to like is the hallmark of a professional? For what it's worth, I don't portray a "conflict", I allege in no uncertain terms that it is people like you who try to instigate it. You speak in absolutes as far as your personal preference in software is concerned, making it clear that you think all people who use anything else are unprofessional idiots. I'm not sure you are aware how arrogant and abrasive this sounds.

I'm not writing this to attack you personally, but I want to call attention to a kind of behavior I think is not acceptable, and it sure as hell isn't productive in any setting - least of all a discussion with a diverse group of developers. You should not be able to get away with this so easily. Whether intentionally or not, you are poisoning the discourse.

You get to say all the reasons why you like product X, and all the reasons why you dislike product Y, and then we can have a discussion based on these points. Just asserting X is obviously superior, and Y users are ignorant nincompoops is not OK.

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#72

I'll paste this same text into your Google Doc... I don't know what your technical level is so I'll aim for college-educated with a broad understanding of technology. Apologies if I come off as condescending; I don't know what you know. Feel free to use this in your paper. You can also snip out profanity of course (or leave it in for flavor; that's up to you). Email: michael.o.church at gmail [Start here] In my opini…

A few hastily considered thoughts in response:

I really don't understand why you think "convexity" is a new concept. Isn't this the way most if not all artisan crafts have worked since antiquity? Master-apprentice and guilds. Either software creation is an engineering discipline or it is a craft. You seem to be cherry-picking.

Also I believe that while your characterization of open-source projects as essentially ego trips may be accurate of some, it is so only of a minority and in any case will not withstand any serious feminist critique.

I find that your assumption that only superior software engineers can judge the work of other engineers to be patently false and it sets up a false dichotomy. That is the same as saying that only other artists can judge artistic merit. It has no basis in fact or history. What software engineers simply fail to do is provide objective basis for their work because they don't want to lose any bargaining power over management; much the way alchemists conned their own patrons.

I contribute to open source projects because it is the right thing to do. It is moral. Not to enhance my reputation in some false gift economy or portfolio waving. Perhaps I am "old school" but this is why reading Stallman was important to my development.

Finally, one does not get satisfaction from simply seeing your cool stuff in use. For example, seeing an evil regime use your cool stuff to repress its citizenry would give me no satisfaction at all.

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#73

I'll paste this same text into your Google Doc... I don't know what your technical level is so I'll aim for college-educated with a broad understanding of technology. Apologies if I come off as condescending; I don't know what you know. Feel free to use this in your paper. You can also snip out profanity of course (or leave it in for flavor; that's up to you). Email: michael.o.church at gmail [Start here] In my opini…

This is a great summary and application of your ideas.

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#74

I'll paste this same text into your Google Doc... I don't know what your technical level is so I'll aim for college-educated with a broad understanding of technology. Apologies if I come off as condescending; I don't know what you know. Feel free to use this in your paper. You can also snip out profanity of course (or leave it in for flavor; that's up to you). Email: michael.o.church at gmail [Start here] In my opini…

A few hastily considered thoughts in response: I really don't understand why you think "convexity" is a new concept. Isn't this the way most if not all artisan crafts have worked since antiquity? Master-apprentice and guilds. Either software creation is an engineering discipline or it is a craft. You seem to be cherry-picking. Also I believe that while your characterization of open-source projects as essentially ego…

He never said convexity is a new concept. In the context of the industrial economy, convexity is a new problem because the past 100 years of industrial economic development has relied on concave work that is now being outsourced to computers.

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#75
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PostgreSQL is appealing to professionals who have a solid understanding of relational theory, who have much experience creating, using and maintaining large, heavily-used and high-availability databases, and who can quite easily see the many flaws with lesser database systems. These are the kind of people who, knowing that better exists, will indeed speak out loudly against that which is inferior. You portray it as s…

You think flaming against software you don't happen to like is the hallmark of a professional? For what it's worth, I don't portray a "conflict", I allege in no uncertain terms that it is people like you who try to instigate it. You speak in absolutes as far as your personal preference in software is concerned, making it clear that you think all people who use anything else are unprofessional idiots. I'm not sure you…

I'm not sure what my personal preference has to do with this discussion.

Regardless of what I may think or believe, the fact is that PostgreSQL is a superb relational database system. Of the open source database systems, it is by far the most capable and robust. Its price and very liberal licensing only make it better. This is indisputable.

I don't see how taking an unemotional look at the facts, especially when purely objective technical analysis is involved, is in any way "poisoning the discourse".

As professionals, we should be able to look at our tools and openly state which are good, and which are bad. Detaching oneself from emotions and personal convictions is one of the hallmarks of professionalism, regardless of the field in question.

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few hastily considered thoughts in response: I really don't understand why you think "convexity" is a new concept. Isn't this the way most if not all artisan crafts have worked since antiquity? Master-apprentice and guilds. Either software creation is an engineering discipline or it is a craft. You seem to be cherry-picking. Also I believe that while your characterization of open-source projects as essentially ego…

He never said convexity is a new concept. In the context of the industrial economy, convexity is a new problem because the past 100 years of industrial economic development has relied on concave work that is now being outsourced to computers.

Ok. That was not my interpretation of his long essay which includes no context of existing literature on the subject the absence of which leads me to believe the author believes the term or concept is novel.

Your interpretation is equally fair and interesting but seems off-topic because isn't the efficient creation of correct source code almost exclusively the domain of human work? I probably misunderstand you.

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#77

I'll paste this same text into your Google Doc... I don't know what your technical level is so I'll aim for college-educated with a broad understanding of technology. Apologies if I come off as condescending; I don't know what you know. Feel free to use this in your paper. You can also snip out profanity of course (or leave it in for flavor; that's up to you). Email: michael.o.church at gmail [Start here] In my opini…

A few hastily considered thoughts in response: I really don't understand why you think "convexity" is a new concept. Isn't this the way most if not all artisan crafts have worked since antiquity? Master-apprentice and guilds. Either software creation is an engineering discipline or it is a craft. You seem to be cherry-picking. Also I believe that while your characterization of open-source projects as essentially ego…

I really don't understand why you think "convexity" is a new concept.

Convexity's not new. What is new is the inability for humans to compete with machines on concave labor.

Convexity and concavity come (in theory, anyway) from the logistic form:

L(x; ...) = V + A/(1+exp(-S(x-D)))

It grows exponentially (convex) over x > D, leveling off to meet a horizontal asymptote at x = V + A.

V is a vertical offset, A is maximum potential/saturation, S is precision, and D is difficulty. Those are constants per function; x is the input (performance). L computes the economic payoff.

Generally, values of x tend to be fairly narrowly distributed based on "the state of the art" and if the typical x > D, then we have concave/easy stuff. Since input is abstract here, it's typical to say the "typical" x is at 0.

What management has been doing for 200 years is increasing precision (S) and pushing D to the left... making labor concave/easier and precise. That is a good thing. That's exactly what you should do if you're managing a concave job. Incidentally, if you have a convex job, increasing S is not what you want to do because it increases your failure rate.

Now, concave work is (from an economic perspective) great because the ratio of the payoff to the risk (first derivative of L) is high, and that means that in the "knapsack problem" of trying to maximize value under risk constraints, you want to be doing as much of that as you can. Right. No argument there.

With machines, S → ∞ (step function) which you never see with humans, and not only that but the "step" level is usually quite low (in cost; cents per hour of electricity) once it's properly programmed. So what this means is that, for a given business enterprise, we can often give most or all of the concave work over to machines and there's still room in our "knapsack" for high-yield (convex) work. For convex work, value-per-risk is nearly constant and thus the traditional industrial optimization heuristic (value-per-risk) becomes irrelevant. Convex is risk-intrinsic, meaning that it is the risk (rather than unpleasantness) that explains the value.

Thus, the convex work is what's left for us. If it's concave, there's no need for humans to do. The good news? When work is convex, demand for it is effectively limitless. (Limits may exist; the S-curve may level off and turn concave. But if the work's convex, that means the state of the art isn't anywhere near there.)

Also I believe that while your characterization of open-source projects as essentially ego trips may be accurate of some

Oh no, that's is not what I am saying at all.

What is egotistical about doing great work and sharing it for free?

I am very much pro-OSS and would never say that.

I find that your assumption that only superior software engineers can judge the work of other engineers to be patently false and it sets up a false dichotomy.

We're just going to disagree on this one, because I think that there are attributes of work (especially presentation) that are easy to assess, and others that are hard, and, on the whole, management is about as equipped to assess code-quality issues as I am to go into a chip factory and start spouting off theories about how I think electrical engineering should work. (I have no EE experience.)

Imagine me going into an EE shop and saying, "No more use of imaginary numbers! I don't quite understand how something not real can be useful! If I catch you taking a square root of a negative number, you're fired!" Well, that's how management often comes across on software.

What software engineers simply fail to do is provide objective basis for their work because they don't want to lose any bargaining power over management

Sorry, but that's nonsense. If anything, we lack bargaining power over management, because most of us are terrible negotiators who are socially marginal and awkward, and our inability as a group to demand what we're worth is extremely detrimental.

I contribute to open source projects because it is the right thing to do. It is moral. Not to enhance my reputation in some false gift economy or portfolio waving. Perhaps I am "old school" but this is why reading Stallman was important to my development.

Finally, one does not get satisfaction from simply seeing your cool stuff in use. For example, seeing an evil regime use your cool stuff to repress its citizenry would give me no satisfaction at all.

That's awesome, and there's no disagreement coming from this corner.

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#78
post #67

I'll paste this same text into your Google Doc... I don't know what your technical level is so I'll aim for college-educated with a broad understanding of technology. Apologies if I come off as condescending; I don't know what you know. Feel free to use this in your paper. You can also snip out profanity of course (or leave it in for flavor; that's up to you). Email: michael.o.church at gmail [Start here] In my opini…

Isn't too much open-source also a bad thing? I think we are doing ourselves a disservice by creating open source software that automates the job of the programmer. It eliminates a lot of programming jobs. Many programmers learn to be "modifiers" instead of creators and so they never really learn... And besides, look at other professions. Is the plumber, the carpenter, the doctor, the lawyer giving you some service fo…

I think we are doing ourselves a disservice by creating open source software that automates the job of the programmer.

That will never happen. Compilers automate the tedious parts of code, and we still have jobs. There's almost limitless demand, at least now, for the use of technology to improve business processes.

It eliminates a lot of programming jobs.

It does. And it creates others.

Many programmers learn to be "modifiers" instead of creators and so they never really learn...

Well, if their bosses take too much out of them and they're stripped of the energy to learn, then they should demand higher salaries or change jobs. If they choose not to learn because they don't have the curiosity, then they don't really belong in technology because curiosity is the one inflexible requirement.

Is the plumber, the carpenter, the doctor, the lawyer giving you some service for free?

Fixed vs. variable costs. The marginal cost for a doctor to see a patient (in her time) is non-zero. The marginal cost for someone's repository to be copied is (effectively) zero. Different situation.

Programmers eat the fixed costs (mostly, time) because they enjoy the problem, want to learn something, or what to build something cool. They're not going to do ongoing support (variable costs) for free, though-- at least, not at scale.

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#79
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think flaming against software you don't happen to like is the hallmark of a professional? For what it's worth, I don't portray a "conflict", I allege in no uncertain terms that it is people like you who try to instigate it. You speak in absolutes as far as your personal preference in software is concerned, making it clear that you think all people who use anything else are unprofessional idiots. I'm not sure you…

I'm not sure what my personal preference has to do with this discussion. Regardless of what I may think or believe, the fact is that PostgreSQL is a superb relational database system. Of the open source database systems, it is by far the most capable and robust. Its price and very liberal licensing only make it better. This is indisputable. I don't see how taking an unemotional look at the facts, especially when pure…

> I don't see how taking an unemotional look at the facts

If only it were so! We'd be talking about actual facts, instead you're doing this, posturing. You think because you say you're being objective makes it so? Nothing you said had any content besides an aggressive statement about your preferences badly hidden behind what you assert to be the objective truth. Listen, I tried. I don't know what else to say except repeating myself. I'm also not quite sure if you're not just trolling, so I think we should both spend our energy on something more rewarding.

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He never said convexity is a new concept. In the context of the industrial economy, convexity is a new problem because the past 100 years of industrial economic development has relied on concave work that is now being outsourced to computers.

Ok. That was not my interpretation of his long essay which includes no context of existing literature on the subject the absence of which leads me to believe the author believes the term or concept is novel. Your interpretation is equally fair and interesting but seems off-topic because isn't the efficient creation of correct source code almost exclusively the domain of human work? I probably misunderstand you.

I would say that I've "independently discovered" convexity. I'm the first (to my knowledge) to use it to describe human performance at work. I'm far from the first to have the idea. Traders talk about gamma (yep, one of those Greeks) which is the second derivative of an asset's sensitivity to an underlying price. If your portfolio has positive gamma with respect to an underlying, that means you benefit from (zero-mean) volatility in it.

What I realized at some point was that labor tends to be split between "fun" work that has extreme inequality (e.g. writing novels) and volatility, and boring, commodity work. I started reading up on the economics of labor and S-curves (logistics) kept coming up and I realized what was going on.

An industrial enterprise is, in truth, much like an artificial neural net, because it's a bunch of logistic input/output relationships feeding into each other.

It's a simple matter of calculus to show that the old industrial optimization (maximum yield on capital, within bounded risk constraints) favors concave work, and that explains a lot about why businessmen have favored it. But now it's all being automated, because machines are even better at it (more precision) than we are.

That leaves us doing convex work, but there are some serious social problems in a world where (a) concave work is increasingly being gobbled up by machines, but (b) there's no basic income for people who can't supply convex work (again, the only stuff that needs humans) to the market at a living wage. See: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/04/03/gervais-macle...

We're in the beginning stages of seeing Convexity on the larger scale, as people struggle to get the corporate jobs that our parents' generation took for granted.

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