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Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

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Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#71

Post by aurareturn »

PaulKeeble wrote: post #60

I tend to think its putting the memory on the package. Putting the memory on the package has given the M1 over 400GB/s which is a good 4x that on a usual dual channel x64 CPU and the latency is half that of going out to a DRAM slot. That is drastic and I remember when the northbrige was first folded into the CPU by AMD with the Athlon and it had a similarly big improvements in performance. It also reduces power consu…

Memory bandwidth is not what makes the CPU fast and efficiency. The CPU doesn’t even have access to the full Apple Silicon bandwidth.

On package memory increases efficiency, not speed.

However, most of the speed and efficiency advantages are in the design.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#72

Post by dagmx »

hnaccountme wrote: post #68

Apple tailors their software to run optimally on their hardware. Other OSs have to work on a variety of platforms. Therefore limiting the amount of hardware specific optimizations.

This argument never passes the sniff test.

You can run Linux on a MacBook Pro and get similar power efficiency.

Or run third party apps on macOS and similarly get good efficiency.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#73

Post by aurareturn »

DuckConference wrote: post #52

They're big, expensive chips with a focus on power efficiency. AMD and Intel's chips that are on the big and expensive side tend toward being optimized for higher power ranges, so they don't compete well on efficiency, while their more power efficient chips tend toward being optimized for size/cost. If you're willing to spend a bunch of die area (which directly translates into cost) you can get good numbers on the ot…

Per core, Apple’s Performance cores are no bigger than AMD’s Zen cores. So it’s a myth that they’re only fast and efficient because they are big.

What makes Apple silicon chips big is they bolt on a fast GPU on it. If you include the die of a discrete GPU with an x86 chip, it’d be the same or bigger than M series.

You can look at Intel’s Lunar Lake as an example where it’s physically bigger than an M4 but slower in CPU, GPU, NPU and has way worse efficiency.

Another comparison is AMD Strix Halo. Despite being ~1.5x bigger than the M4 Pro, it has worse efficiency, ST performance, and GPU performance. It does have slightly more MT.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#74

Post by aurareturn »

hnaccountme wrote: post #68

Apple tailors their software to run optimally on their hardware. Other OSs have to work on a variety of platforms. Therefore limiting the amount of hardware specific optimizations.

The fastest and most efficiency Windows laptop in the world is an M4 MacBook running Parallels.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#75

Post by mrheosuper »

spankibalt wrote: post #63
blacksmith_tb wrote: post #12

I considered getting a personal MBP (I have an M3 from work), but picked up a Framework 13 with the AMD 7 7840U. I have Pop!_OS on it, and while it isn't quite as impressive as the MBP, it is radically better than other Windows / Linux laptops I have used lately, battery life is quite good, ~5hr or so, not quite on par with the MBP but still good enough that I don't really have any complaints (and being able to up up…

> "[...] battery life is quite good, ~5hr or so [...]" You call five hours good?! Damn... For productivity use, I'd never buy anything below shift-endurance (eight hours or more).

Depends on what you do at work, 5 hours of continuous editing video is pretty good.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#76

Post by nik736 »

spankibalt wrote: post #58
al_borland wrote: post #18

I’ve been thinking a lot about getting something from Framework, as I like their ethos around relatability. However, I currently have an M1 Pro which works just fine, so I’ve been kicking the can down the road while worrying that it just won’t be up to par in terms of what I’m used to from Apple. Not just the processor, but everything. Even in the Intel Mac days, I ended up buying a Asus Zephyrus G14, which had nothi…

> "There is a level of polish that I haven’t seen on any x86 laptop, which makes it really hard for me to venture outside of Apple’s sandbox." Hah, it's exactly the other way around for me; I can't stand Apple's hardware. But then again I never bought anything Asus... let alone gamer laptops.

What exactly is wrong with Apple hardware?

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#77

Post by Zanfa »

al_borland wrote: post #18

I’ve been thinking a lot about getting something from Framework, as I like their ethos around relatability. However, I currently have an M1 Pro which works just fine, so I’ve been kicking the can down the road while worrying that it just won’t be up to par in terms of what I’m used to from Apple. Not just the processor, but everything. Even in the Intel Mac days, I ended up buying a Asus Zephyrus G14, which had nothi…

Most manufacturers just don't give a shit. Had the exact same experience with a well-reviewed Acer laptop a while back, ended up getting rid of it a few months in because of constant annoyances, replaced with a MacBook Air that lasted for many years. A few years back, I got one of the popular Asus NUCs that came without networking drivers installed. I'm guessing those were on the CD that came with it, but not particularly helpful on a PC without a CD drive. The same SKU came with a variety of networking hardware from different manufacturers, without any indication of which combination I had, so trial and error it was. Zero chance non-techy people would get either working on their own.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#78

Post by aurareturn »

mycall wrote: post #33
Remnant44 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ARM instructions are fixed size, while x86 are variable. This makes a wide decoder fairly trivial for ARM, while it is complex and difficult for x86. However, this doesn't really hold up as the cause for the difference. The Zen4/5 chips, for example, source the vast majority of their instructions out of their uOp trace cache, where the instructions have already been decoded. This also saves power - even on ARM, decod…

When limited to 5 watts, the Ryzen HX 370 works pretty darn well. In some low-power user cases, my GPD Pocket 4 is more power efficient than my M3 MBA.

We are going to need to see some numbers for your claim. That’s not believable.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#79

Post by JoshTriplett »

ac29 wrote: post #36

One downside of Framework is they use DDR instead of LPDDR. This means you can upgrade or replace the RAM, but it also means memory is much slower and more power hungry. Its also probably worth putting the laptop in "efficiency" mode (15W sustained, 25W boost per Framework). The difference in performance should be fairly negligible compared to balanced mode for most tasks and it will use less energy.

Hopefully Framework will move to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAMM_(memory_module) in the future. But it'd have to become something that's widely available and readily purchased.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#80

Post by mbreese »

baq wrote: post #51
threatripper wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get like 3 hours on my MBP when I use it. MacBooks have better runtime only when they are mostly idle, not when you fully load them.

Can confirm, when developing software (a big project at $JOB) getting 3h out of a M3 MBP is a good day. IDE, build, test and crowdstrike are all quite power hungry.

I wonder how much of that is crowdstrike. At $LASTJOB my Mac was constantly chugging due to some mandated security software. Battery life on that computer was always horrible compared to a personal MB w/o it.
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