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Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

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Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#71

Post by brtkdotse »

ryandrake wrote: post #51
chomp wrote: post #15

Ok yes this guide is fine, a lot of things are up for negotiation, and I think it’s a lot more widely known these days to negotiate for stuff. But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. They know it’s something you’re supposed to do, but they will try and negotiate things that are not negotiable (like making it a hard ask for extra contributions per paycheck for healthcare to mat…

> But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. Unless you have some kind of very unique skill or you have other offers and the company really, really wants you, how exactly are you supposed to negotiate? Every comp negotiation I've ever had with a company has gone kind of like this: [Company]: Here's your offer for $X. [Me]: I'd like $Y. [Company]: Your offer is for $X. [Me]: Well,…

Negotiation start and stop with BATNA - Best Alternative To Negotiated Agreement.

The employers BATNA is they go to the pool of 35 other candidates. Yours is you go back to your job.

If your job hunting first when your sick to death of your job, your BATNA isn’t very strong.

If this is your only offer, your BATNA isn’t very strong.

If you’re one paycheck away from being out of the street, your BATNA isn’t very strong.

See where I’m going with this?

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#72

Post by eps »

ryandrake wrote: post #51
chomp wrote: post #15

Ok yes this guide is fine, a lot of things are up for negotiation, and I think it’s a lot more widely known these days to negotiate for stuff. But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. They know it’s something you’re supposed to do, but they will try and negotiate things that are not negotiable (like making it a hard ask for extra contributions per paycheck for healthcare to mat…

> But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. Unless you have some kind of very unique skill or you have other offers and the company really, really wants you, how exactly are you supposed to negotiate? Every comp negotiation I've ever had with a company has gone kind of like this: [Company]: Here's your offer for $X. [Me]: I'd like $Y. [Company]: Your offer is for $X. [Me]: Well,…

Negotiations require two parties willing to negotiate.

In your example one is not, so negotiations aren't possible.

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#73

Post by codingdave »

ryandrake wrote: post #51
chomp wrote: post #15

Ok yes this guide is fine, a lot of things are up for negotiation, and I think it’s a lot more widely known these days to negotiate for stuff. But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. They know it’s something you’re supposed to do, but they will try and negotiate things that are not negotiable (like making it a hard ask for extra contributions per paycheck for healthcare to mat…

> But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. Unless you have some kind of very unique skill or you have other offers and the company really, really wants you, how exactly are you supposed to negotiate? Every comp negotiation I've ever had with a company has gone kind of like this: [Company]: Here's your offer for $X. [Me]: I'd like $Y. [Company]: Your offer is for $X. [Me]: Well,…

That does not match my experience. In small companies, I've asked for more and simply gotten it. At large companies, I've asked for more and in most cases they are willing to move the number as long as I don't push the role up to a higher level/band in their HR structure. And my most recent role, they specifically told me that they would need to give me a higher role/title for the money I wanted... I replied, "Great, re-write the offer for a different role, then." They called me back a couple days later with exactly that.

So I'd call their bluff. When they ask if you want the lower offer, say no. I can tell you that most places have recruiters being told to get you in the door for as little as possible... but still to get you in the door.

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#74

Post by camgunz »

Izkata wrote: post #64
yladiz wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure I follow. In a progressive tax system you pay in brackets, so that extra $20k doesn’t mean the rest of the salary is entirely in the new bracket, so why would it cost an exorbitant amount?

Net income is what goes into your bank after taxes/etc. In the US, the higher tax brackets are around 30% for federal taxes alone, so that extra $20k costs the company around $30k. Not counting state taxes or anything else like paying into benefits. Not sure if retirement savings count here. So let's say between $35k and $40k. Googling "personal assistant salary", it looks like the average in the US is ~$50k/year. So…

Yeah but phrasing/negotiating it this way obfuscates it a little. If you're in negotiations and you ask for $60k/yr more gross, then it's clear you're asking for more than a PA would cost (maybe, factor in total comp for them too and it's probably closer to $65k/$75k). Do people negotiate net?

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#75

Post by RandomThoughts3 »

camgunz wrote: post #74
Izkata wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Net income is what goes into your bank after taxes/etc. In the US, the higher tax brackets are around 30% for federal taxes alone, so that extra $20k costs the company around $30k. Not counting state taxes or anything else like paying into benefits. Not sure if retirement savings count here. So let's say between $35k and $40k. Googling "personal assistant salary", it looks like the average in the US is ~$50k/year. So…

Yeah but phrasing/negotiating it this way obfuscates it a little. If you're in negotiations and you ask for $60k/yr more gross, then it's clear you're asking for more than a PA would cost (maybe, factor in total comp for them too and it's probably closer to $65k/$75k). Do people negotiate net?

> Do people negotiate net?

Nobody negotiates net. It's not even practical. Your tax situation will depend of the other revenues you might receive on top of your wages and the deductions you are eligible to and your employer doesn't have to know about that.

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#76

Post by RandomThoughts3 »

ryandrake wrote: post #51
chomp wrote: post #15

Ok yes this guide is fine, a lot of things are up for negotiation, and I think it’s a lot more widely known these days to negotiate for stuff. But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. They know it’s something you’re supposed to do, but they will try and negotiate things that are not negotiable (like making it a hard ask for extra contributions per paycheck for healthcare to mat…

> But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. Unless you have some kind of very unique skill or you have other offers and the company really, really wants you, how exactly are you supposed to negotiate? Every comp negotiation I've ever had with a company has gone kind of like this: [Company]: Here's your offer for $X. [Me]: I'd like $Y. [Company]: Your offer is for $X. [Me]: Well,…

> [Company]: if you don't want $X, there's the door. We have 35 other candidates in the hiring pipeline.

That's partly bluff. Hiring a good candidate is costly.

If they make you an offer, they have already sunk the costs of screening you. Having you exit at the negotiation stage is never free for them. You always have some wiggle room.

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#77

Post by wodenokoto »

chomp wrote: post #15

Ok yes this guide is fine, a lot of things are up for negotiation, and I think it’s a lot more widely known these days to negotiate for stuff. But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. They know it’s something you’re supposed to do, but they will try and negotiate things that are not negotiable (like making it a hard ask for extra contributions per paycheck for healthcare to mat…

Thank you for sharing the other side of the table.

But how are we supposed to know what is negotiable? HRs main negotiation tactic is to say “not negotiable”

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#78

Post by jangliss »

RandomThoughts3 wrote: post #75
camgunz wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but phrasing/negotiating it this way obfuscates it a little. If you're in negotiations and you ask for $60k/yr more gross, then it's clear you're asking for more than a PA would cost (maybe, factor in total comp for them too and it's probably closer to $65k/$75k). Do people negotiate net?

> Do people negotiate net? Nobody negotiates net. It's not even practical. Your tax situation will depend of the other revenues you might receive on top of your wages and the deductions you are eligible to and your employer doesn't have to know about that.

The only time I've heard of negotiating net is in certain Gulf countries where employers will pay all your taxes for you. Not a thing in the US or Europe though.

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#79

Post by cutemonster »

sweetmeet99 wrote: post #68

I am a generalist. Not once in my twenty years of experience have I met anyone like me. I can write firmware just as well as I can design and implement UX and UI. Heck, I can design circuits or even products in fusion 360. Where are all these so called generalists? If you mean “fullstack”, that is only a small fraction of software, and the bar has lowered a lot since JavaScript has become ubiquitous (so you only need…

Both firmware and UX, makes me wonder, what did you study? (Something closer to hardware and theory than to design and UX if I were to guess?)

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#80

Post by jtbetz22 »

ryandrake wrote: post #51
chomp wrote: post #15

Ok yes this guide is fine, a lot of things are up for negotiation, and I think it’s a lot more widely known these days to negotiate for stuff. But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. They know it’s something you’re supposed to do, but they will try and negotiate things that are not negotiable (like making it a hard ask for extra contributions per paycheck for healthcare to mat…

> But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. Unless you have some kind of very unique skill or you have other offers and the company really, really wants you, how exactly are you supposed to negotiate? Every comp negotiation I've ever had with a company has gone kind of like this: [Company]: Here's your offer for $X. [Me]: I'd like $Y. [Company]: Your offer is for $X. [Me]: Well,…

Every hiring manager with any experience should anticipate that candidates are likely to negotiate.

Therefore, any offer should be backed by logic of the form "we want to hire this candidate for $Y or less. We will make an initial of $X (X In my experience, usually Y==(X * 1.1).

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