Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 83 posts

Re: Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

#71

Post by sterlind »

alfiedotwtf wrote: post #35
iKlsR wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading a funny story somewhere recently that back in the day, ms developers intentionally left gaps in the docs or straight up didn't document certain apis etc so they could put them in their books and sell those so if you were working on certain things you'd be forced to buy said books.

I remember a different reason - APIs were intentionally not documented so Microsoft Products were the only apps that would know how to use them (and gain an advantage over the competition)

When I joined MS my boss told me that Microsoft apps weren't allowed to use internal APIs, I think as part of the anti-trust settlement. Windows components (e.g. the Settings app) can, but actual apps (e.g. Word) couldn't do anything third-party developers wouldn't be allowed to do. Some APIs are considered public but their documentation is less than useful, admittedly. But with those I don't have access to anything better either. :/

(Disclaimer: I speak for myself, based on my memory of public knowledge.)

Re: Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

#72

Post by deaddodo »

p_l wrote: post #67
deaddodo wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea how you got that idea about Microsoft's developer documentation. It's always been one of the more robust options out there. You can find full tutorials and documentation on the entirety of WinUI3, which is the literal bleeding edge; for instance.

You will also often see big chinking warnings that the site is no longer updated pointing you to homepage of current docs site, despite the APIs you're looking for being still current.

Is the new documentation lacking something you need? Is there some reason you don't use the outdated documentation, if it's working for you? Are you mad because there are redundant resources available to you?

I'm literally writing this to you on a Laptop exclusively running Fedora Linux. I do most of my development in OSS tools. I'm not some fanboy, yet despite that (or maybe due to that) I'm still able to recognize the very obvious fact that Microsoft has very robust documentation.

Re: Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

#73

Post by Spooky23 »

tbyehl wrote: post #37
iKlsR wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading a funny story somewhere recently that back in the day, ms developers intentionally left gaps in the docs or straight up didn't document certain apis etc so they could put them in their books and sell those so if you were working on certain things you'd be forced to buy said books.

Back in the day, Microsoft shipped a figurative ton of documentation. I remember my dad coming home with this monstrosity: https://www.pcworld.com/article/917478/microsofts-biggest-so...

That’s nothing! When I was an IBM/Tivoli administrator, they’d ship about 12 linear feet of manuals every 9-12 months.

Re: Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

#74

Post by trimethylpurine »

dgellow wrote: post #61
trimethylpurine wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think the intentions of the voting system are for marking low quality, as you've said, I think in practice most downvoters are using it to mark their disagreement. There's something interesting about that; it implies that grey text signifies a non-conformist view and approach to a technical issue. As is the case here. I like to skip to the grey text.

> Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

From a technical perspective I think my comment is interesting for anyone running a platform. I don't think this guideline applies.

Re: Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

#75

Post by trimethylpurine »

brudgers wrote: post #25
trimethylpurine wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think the intentions of the voting system are for marking low quality, as you've said, I think in practice most downvoters are using it to mark their disagreement. There's something interesting about that; it implies that grey text signifies a non-conformist view and approach to a technical issue. As is the case here. I like to skip to the grey text.

I wrote the downvoted comment and am a proponent of downvoting for disagreement. Downvoting is an alternative to arguing and often makes for better comment pages.

It's a great perspective. In fact I upvoted your comment just now.

By contrast, it also prevents users from commenting. See dang's posts on this.

Regardless, it's interesting to note that it also, indirectly, highlights interesting comments.

Do you also find that interesting?

Re: Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

#76

Post by p_l »

deaddodo wrote: post #72
p_l wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will also often see big chinking warnings that the site is no longer updated pointing you to homepage of current docs site, despite the APIs you're looking for being still current.

Is the new documentation lacking something you need? Is there some reason you don't use the outdated documentation, if it's working for you? Are you mad because there are redundant resources available to you? I'm literally writing this to you on a Laptop exclusively running Fedora Linux. I do most of my development in OSS tools. I'm not some fanboy, yet despite that (or maybe due to that) I'm still able to recognize…

It's a problem because it makes one doubt whether they are in right place.

What's more, it's a step back from how well Microsoft did it in the past.

It's essentially like stepping into half-done move between two different places, and never being able to tell where did you put what.

They can, and in the past did, do better.

Re: Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

#77

Post by brudgers »

trimethylpurine wrote: post #75
brudgers wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote the downvoted comment and am a proponent of downvoting for disagreement. Downvoting is an alternative to arguing and often makes for better comment pages.

It's a great perspective. In fact I upvoted your comment just now. By contrast, it also prevents users from commenting. See dang's posts on this. Regardless, it's interesting to note that it also, indirectly, highlights interesting comments. Do you also find that interesting?

Typically, if a comment has been downvoted, I use it as a reason to filter it out. There’s more comments than I am going to read so reducing the pool is useful to me…and I don’t identify as a contrarian.

Thinking about it, downvoting for disagreement is the analog of upvoting for agreement.

Re: Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

#79

Post by deaddodo »

p_l wrote: post #76
deaddodo wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the new documentation lacking something you need? Is there some reason you don't use the outdated documentation, if it's working for you? Are you mad because there are redundant resources available to you? I'm literally writing this to you on a Laptop exclusively running Fedora Linux. I do most of my development in OSS tools. I'm not some fanboy, yet despite that (or maybe due to that) I'm still able to recognize…

It's a problem because it makes one doubt whether they are in right place. What's more, it's a step back from how well Microsoft did it in the past . It's essentially like stepping into half-done move between two different places, and never being able to tell where did you put what. They can, and in the past did, do better.

That doesn't answer any of the questions. That just introduces another vague problem of feelings.

Re: Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

#80

Post by p_l »

deaddodo wrote: post #79
p_l wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a problem because it makes one doubt whether they are in right place. What's more, it's a step back from how well Microsoft did it in the past . It's essentially like stepping into half-done move between two different places, and never being able to tell where did you put what. They can, and in the past did, do better.

That doesn't answer any of the questions. That just introduces another vague problem of feelings.

Perception is important in discoverability of documentation, and yes, vibes are also part of it.

The complaint is that now it often ends up disjointed, especially when you're starting to search for a topic, and the links pointing you to "new site because this one no longer updated" don't point to the same topic (or area) on the new site.

Also, I have absolutely no idea where you come from with fanboyism or Microsoft hate as context in previous comment.

Post reply on HN