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Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#71

Post by madmax108 »

danwee wrote: post #31

> And finally, I feel no one else is realizing that they are happily hacking away at the amazingly well-paid branch they're sitting on. As soon as a company's IT department is practically fully remote, why should they page a German wage for someone who is a face on a screen, when they can pay a fraction for that same face broadcasted from a few hundred kilometers further east or south? German is hardly used in busine…

> So [...] we cannot have nice things

Repeat after me. Corporations do not exist to give you nice things. They exist to enhance shareholder value.

Anything that helps with that is "fair game" from the PoV of a corporation, be it offshoring maintainance work or support, laying off folks, establishing HQs in tax havens.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#72

Post by fool1987 »

benjaminwootton wrote: post #43
danwee wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said "decent" companies. We all know most of the companies out there are not "decent".

The vast, vast majority of companies in the world would not pay massively over market rates to their staff. To minimise costs and maximise profits (without exploiting anyone of course) is the raison d'etre for a business, and is in no way unethrical.

I don't disagree with you but I think we may have differing definitions of "exploitation."

To generate more value for a company than you receive in wage is to be exploited, in my book, and is subsequently unethical.

The way out of this situation is unclear but to pretend that this is not the case helps neither man nor beast.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#73

Post by munchausen42 »

If you wonder why an argument might be controversial, it can helpful to imagine how it would sound like in mirror world:

Assume for a moment that working remotly and a flexible workday would have been always the default. And now some companies decide: Hey let's contractually enforce a 9 hour continuous workday where all our workers will be locked in a big ugly building that we build just for that purpose (Btw. at least one of the 9 hours will be unpaid because this is where people will have lunch. Also we won't reimburse anyone for their traveling expenses or their time spent during the commute).

Now read again the arguments you wrote to support this new idea.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#74

Post by lytefm »

throwaway294566 wrote: post #56

> I always saw tech as the field where a disproportionally large amount of people truly love what they do. You do confuse "loving what they do" with "being at the office" and "socializing during slack time". I do love my job but I do hate socializing with people, which is definitely not my job. That is why I'm working in IT, I don't have to socialize beyond the bare minimum to be successful. I think IT attracts intro…

While a bit snarky, this points in the right direction. OP simply seems to be more extroverted, enjoying personal interaction with colleagues more than their introverted peers. At least from my experience at work + university, IT attracts substantially more introverts.

In addition, family life/ living situation can make a huge dent. Think being single + living in a shared flat in the center vs being married living in a house 1h+ commute away from the office.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#75

Post by ryandvm »

danwee wrote: post #31

> And finally, I feel no one else is realizing that they are happily hacking away at the amazingly well-paid branch they're sitting on. As soon as a company's IT department is practically fully remote, why should they page a German wage for someone who is a face on a screen, when they can pay a fraction for that same face broadcasted from a few hundred kilometers further east or south? German is hardly used in busine…

If you really want companies to just pay for "skills", then unfortunately that's going to mean a considerable drop in the average salary of a developer in the US and Europe. Globally the average salary of a skilled developer is not what folks are making in the valley.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#76

Post by Terretta »

madmax108 wrote: post #71
danwee wrote: post #31

> And finally, I feel no one else is realizing that they are happily hacking away at the amazingly well-paid branch they're sitting on. As soon as a company's IT department is practically fully remote, why should they page a German wage for someone who is a face on a screen, when they can pay a fraction for that same face broadcasted from a few hundred kilometers further east or south? German is hardly used in busine…

> So [...] we cannot have nice things Repeat after me. Corporations do not exist to give you nice things. They exist to enhance shareholder value. Anything that helps with that is "fair game" from the PoV of a corporation, be it offshoring maintainance work or support, laying off folks, establishing HQs in tax havens.

An entire class of corporations has a name -- "lifestyle business" -- where the value to the shareholders (owners, or owner-employees) is the lifestyle it enables rather than some potential IPO pop.

Such things exist, and do employ people who then enjoy those benefits as well.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#77

Post by gonzo41 »

Outsourcing existed before covid, it's swings and roundabouts. Most orgs are trapped in a way by their IT dept. Could they really pull off a total outsourcing gig without a business ending walkout / strike action or just dirty tricks from angry employee's who's motivation falls through the floor.

I would worry less about this, keep coding, get more exercise and consider seeing about scheduling meetings at equidistantly located cafe's with your team for a bit of fun.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#78

Post by fool1987 »

broast wrote: post #17

In my experience, I've developed closer chemistry and more socialization with my team while we've been fully remote, than when we were in person. There is a generation right behind you that is raised on socializing online, that may find it more rewarding than you're willing to.

This experience relies on there being other people of your age or others who have the same attitudes to online socialisation. I am the only person in my department younger than thirty and we all work fully remote; I feel a distinct genrational barrier when talking to colleagues online that is not at all present in person.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#79

Post by iorrus »

closewith wrote: post #13
badpun wrote: post #8

> As soon as a company's IT department is practically fully remote, why should they page a German wage for someone who is a face on a screen, when they can pay a fraction for that same face broadcasted from a few hundred kilometers further east or south? German is hardly used in business context here anyway and lower-wage countries within ±3 hours timezones abound. This has already happened and has resulted in unific…

If that is the case, why are dev salaries in, for example, Dublin so much higher than Berlin (€115,000 vs €86,000 if Levels.fyi is to be believed)? Both are EU capitals with excellent, well-educated workforces.

I don’t think these salaries are normal in Dublin maybe senior level at Meta would go up to €115k max (I recently talked to a recruiter about a job there and that was the level)

Personally I’m on around €80k and senior but not in Dublin.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#80

Post by lytefm »

fny wrote: post #7

First, they'll send your work home, then, they'll send your work abroad. People are too drunk on work from home having experienced it for the first time. I have done it for years. It has its pros and cons. I agree a huge reckoning is coming for white collar work writ large. (1) It can be more easily outsourced. (2) It's easier to fire someone you don't see every working day.

I see this as a strong reason for:

(1) becoming a domain expert who is fine at coding rather than a coding wizard who doesn't know much about the business/ domain.

(2) working at a small company with little process/ few middle managers rather than at a larger corps with many departments and clear role separation between feature requirements and engineering.

Don't want to jinx it, but even if my employer were to move some engineering to eastern Europe, odds are pretty low that I'd be affected. I might code less and spend more time Jira more, though.

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