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Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

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Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#71

Post by ScottStevenson »

coffeefirst wrote: post #16

I call this the "path to enlightenment." You have discovered that the most popular toolchain is overkill for 95% of the things its used for. The problem is that's true literally across the board. You move to the backend and you have to deal with people who fell in love with microservices and weird databases that they didn't need. You move to ops and you have to deal with k8s when a single container would do. If you t…

>Why does this happen?

I wrote about a hypothesis here: https://medium.com/@scott.stevenson/how-to-finally-make-some...

Most of us are scared by the ambiguity of actual creative work, so unless we are under the threat of deadline, we seek out "structured games" to play so that we can put off the anxiety of freeform work. These games are:

(1) Tool Game: Researching and setting up tools (2) Learning Game: Books, podcasts, courses (3) Maintenance Game: Cleaning up our desktop, desk, house, etc. (4) Process Game: Setting up new processes and following them

The knowledge that things are actually easy and straightforward means we actually need to do the creative part of the work--many people are not ready to face that knowledge.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#72

Post by adrianmsmith »

coffeefirst wrote: post #16

I call this the "path to enlightenment." You have discovered that the most popular toolchain is overkill for 95% of the things its used for. The problem is that's true literally across the board. You move to the backend and you have to deal with people who fell in love with microservices and weird databases that they didn't need. You move to ops and you have to deal with k8s when a single container would do. If you t…

> Why does this happen?

A few answers already but let me add one: Complex technologies favour seniors who are capable of understanding the complexity, over juniors who might struggle more. And it's seniors who make the decisions on what technology to use, so I think it's "rational" if they (even subconsciously) make choices which benefit them. They don't want to get replaced by cheaper juniors.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#73

Post by dimmke »

tonightstoast wrote: post #48
dimmke wrote: post #9

>I’ve hit a point where it just doesn’t seem like the end justifies the means in the vast majority of cases anymore I agree, but the only path forward is to change the specifications for HTML/CSS/JavaScript. As an industry we need to accept that these technologies get used to build web pages as well as software and adjust. This will remove a ton of the tooling. I think there are 3 basic things we could do to solve th…

Please write the blog post. It may be a hard sell but think of it more as a creative conversation with the future of web dev. While you may not get the final answer “correct”, your post will help the community progress a much needed discussion.

Thanks, and I will. It's at about 3000 words and I have been sitting on it, but I think I am going to just finish it up and release it and see what discussion it generates.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#74

Post by tomg »

coffeefirst wrote: post #16

I call this the "path to enlightenment." You have discovered that the most popular toolchain is overkill for 95% of the things its used for. The problem is that's true literally across the board. You move to the backend and you have to deal with people who fell in love with microservices and weird databases that they didn't need. You move to ops and you have to deal with k8s when a single container would do. If you t…

> Why does this happen? No idea, but it's not lost on me that a lot of these things are backed by huge companies with giant piles of money who are using them as marketing.

Your whole post is spot-on :)

My two cents on the answer to this question:

- New tools / frameworks / libraries / etc often position themselves as “solving” some perceived deficiency of the prior generation of that thing. So it can be attractive to want to move over to something that solves a pain point. (Whether it actually does, or whether it just replaces it with a new pain point is another thing…) Monolith to microservices is an example.

- At least for me, if I’m starting a new project (especially if it’s in a space I’m not that experienced in), it’s tempting to choose what looks to be the simplest choice, which could be for example a niche database technology suited for my exact need (even if in reality a regular SQL db would be just fine).

- Engineers like to play with new toys!

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#75

Post by xd »

bottlepalm wrote: post #62
xd wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh god ORM's, pointless waste of time and just an excuse not to learn SQL.. almost as bad as the #1 PHP fallacy; Smarty (which is still a thing).

This point of view is a fallacy itself. ORMs are about productivity and maintainability. Some of us write enterprise applications where ORMs are a godsend. They're not a replacement for being knowledgeable in SQL whatsoever.

It's just my opinion based on 20+ years of developing data management solutions across thousands of customers.. any framework employs a set of beliefs and that creates a box you are constrained to think in, hell SQL is one of them boxes. You say "They're not a replacement for being knowledgeable in SQL whatsoever." .. so what are they then?

Edit: I once spent/wasted almost 2 years of my life trying to develop the ultimate ORM. In the end I replaced it for a simple directory structure of API end points where every .php file does a specific job with good old SQL queries in there.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#76

Post by plugin-baby »

adrianmsmith wrote: post #72
coffeefirst wrote: post #16

I call this the "path to enlightenment." You have discovered that the most popular toolchain is overkill for 95% of the things its used for. The problem is that's true literally across the board. You move to the backend and you have to deal with people who fell in love with microservices and weird databases that they didn't need. You move to ops and you have to deal with k8s when a single container would do. If you t…

> Why does this happen? A few answers already but let me add one: Complex technologies favour seniors who are capable of understanding the complexity, over juniors who might struggle more. And it's seniors who make the decisions on what technology to use, so I think it's "rational" if they (even subconsciously) make choices which benefit them. They don't want to get replaced by cheaper juniors.

I’ve observed the opposite - less experienced devs tend to want to use more complicated and extensive/invasive tech, without understanding if it’s appropriate or what its limitations are.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#77

Post by Buttons840 »

coffeefirst wrote: post #16

I call this the "path to enlightenment." You have discovered that the most popular toolchain is overkill for 95% of the things its used for. The problem is that's true literally across the board. You move to the backend and you have to deal with people who fell in love with microservices and weird databases that they didn't need. You move to ops and you have to deal with k8s when a single container would do. If you t…

> The only thing you can do (besides leave it all behind and open a taqueria) is be a voice for simplicity.

You can also learn to leave work at work. Keep your side projects simple, if you have any. And rest easy knowing that at work the efforts of one person, you, create enough maintenance work for two people; enjoy that job security.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#78

Post by globular-toast »

hnuser847 wrote: post #46

I feel your pain. My career happiness peaked around 2014 or 2015, when I was writing Rails monoliths. I felt like I could focus 100% of my energy on business logic since the framework was so opinionated and the stack was simple. Things went rapidly downhill after that, once microservices, SPAs, node.js, NoSQL, and serverless computing started becoming popular. Everything just felt like a step backward. Microservices…

I still work on a Django monolith and agree on being able to focus 100% on business logic. I've found Angular is excellent for "sprinkling" a little JS into the frontend where necessary rather than going the full SPA/React route.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#79

Post by 9wzYQbTYsAIc »

jitl wrote: post #67
peatfreak wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easier said than done. This style of doing things is very common in large corporate environments such as financial services. The first time anybody works at a place like this they are shocked by all the IT red tape, but it's an interesting (and frustrating) rite of passage. It takes maturity and experience to understand that there is always a reason for "stupid" complications.

These organization should change their infosec posture to support sudo on dev machines as standard issue, especially if you’re issuing laptops. Maybe I’m immature but I’d prefer not to suffer as such for the sake of a “rite of passage” from ages past.

Some organizations still haven’t adjusted their infosec posture to allow git, let alone sudo.
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