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Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

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Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#71

Post by bee_rider »

natch wrote: post #51
davidhyde wrote: post #35

The Bluetooth Special Interest Group (SIG) is responsible for publishing all the Bluetooth specs and you can download them here: https://www.bluetooth.com/specifications/specs/ Notice that everything appears to be there: very detailed specs and information about testing. However, when you try to implement one of these specs you quickly realize that you cannot do it with the spec alone. You need example code, base imp…

So, you are suggesting that the Bluetooth SIG did just a fine job with the technology, no problems there, and that people like Apple don't see fit to use the money in their budget to cough up a membership fee? Seeing as how it is Apple devices on which I often encounter pairing difficulties. Super convenient for the SIG that they can point fingers like this (I wonder if that's why they set it up as you describe, ugh)…

Do you have other non-Apple devices with which you encounter pairing difficulties?

My experience with Bluetooth headphones was that on an iPhone they were occasionally annoying, while on Linux they were quite poor and on Windows they were more like a practical joke. This would have been like 4-5 years ago though, maybe all the stacks have been improved.

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#72

Post by Jenk »

thematrixturtle wrote: post #21
Jenk wrote: post #12

Why did Betamax lose out to VHS? Why did MiniDisc never take off? Why does the internet still rely on JavaScript? From my sideline perspective it's probably because Bluetooth was developed without knowing how successful and expansive its use would become. It was developed by mobile phone companies to connect wireless earpieces to mobile telephones, and that was it. The entire scope of the product that is Bluetooth. T…

I worked in telco in the early 2000s when Bluetooth hype was at its peak, and that's just not true: if anything, Bluetooth was hailed as the Next Big Thing because it would enable "Personal Area Networks" (PAN), a now all-but-forgotten buzzword. But don't take my word for it, here's the IEEE in 1999: Examples of applications include Collaborative Maintenance, Mobile Worker, Medical Sensing, Data Synchronization, etc.…

Bluetooth was _adopted_ by IEEE 802.15, using Bluetooth as a base. It didn't invent it.

I'm also older than that. I was referring to the initial Bluetooth papers by Ericsson Mobile in the early 90s.

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#73

Post by oneplane »

Multiple reasons (as outlined partially by others):

  - It is incredibly hard to make something so versatile work well everywhere, all the time, for everything
  - It is even harder to get multiple stakeholders to do this consistently
  - And it harder still to do this if the business case doesn't allow for (long-term) support
This is mostly a business problem and not really a technical problem. Wi-Fi is similarly pretty badly implemented, for similar reasons, but the upside is that it doesn't have a billion specialised profiles, it generally just has to pretend it's encapsulating network frames the same way ethernet does. As long as it can do that, people can make use of it.

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#74

Post by RockRobotRock »

cronix wrote: post #32
3pt14159 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wireless wins for all my uses. I can easily bike with my Beats wireless headphones. I can easily run. I can get up from the computer while watching a YouTube show or if I'm in the middle of a video chat and still want to listen in while I make a quick tea or something in the kitchen. I've literally gone swimming with my wireless headphones. Heads up front crawl, but still. These things are awesome. Why on earth would…

And it's really fun buying a new pair every x years purely because the battery has degraded and not really replaceable. I quit buying them purely because they fairly rapidly (compared to wired headphones) become e-waste, for the slight conveniences you mentioned. All those things including swimming were done with wired headphones too, with maybe the exception of walking into the other room to get your tea.

My noise cancelling bluetooth headphones will still work without any power if you plug them into 3.5mm. Of course, they were horrendously expensive, so any longevity gains are outweighed by the cost.

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#75

Post by Pxtl »

Honestly, the latency is the biggest problem for me.

I've got a bluetooth game controller and headset for my phone (Pixel 4a), but the latency makes using them both at once impossible. If I switch to a wired headset the controller bluetooth gets better and the game becomes playable.

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#76

Post by colinmhayes »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #48
3pt14159 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wireless wins for all my uses. I can easily bike with my Beats wireless headphones. I can easily run. I can get up from the computer while watching a YouTube show or if I'm in the middle of a video chat and still want to listen in while I make a quick tea or something in the kitchen. I've literally gone swimming with my wireless headphones. Heads up front crawl, but still. These things are awesome. Why on earth would…

Tuck the cable inside the shirt, and most of these aren't issues. Quality excellent. Also don't have to worry about earbuds falling off to be run over, or falling in a storm drain. Sounds unlikely but my keys just narrowly missed this on a recent bike ride.

People say this, I don't find it to be true. I still got the cable stuck on door handles all the time when it was tucked into my shirt, because finding the perfect cable length is impossible. Either way, the main problem remains; I want to be to move around a room with my headphones but without my phone/computer. That requires wireless.

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#77

Post by JLCarveth »

bee_rider wrote: post #71
natch wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you are suggesting that the Bluetooth SIG did just a fine job with the technology, no problems there, and that people like Apple don't see fit to use the money in their budget to cough up a membership fee? Seeing as how it is Apple devices on which I often encounter pairing difficulties. Super convenient for the SIG that they can point fingers like this (I wonder if that's why they set it up as you describe, ugh)…

Do you have other non-Apple devices with which you encounter pairing difficulties? My experience with Bluetooth headphones was that on an iPhone they were occasionally annoying, while on Linux they were quite poor and on Windows they were more like a practical joke. This would have been like 4-5 years ago though, maybe all the stacks have been improved.

Honestly my linux desktop (Ubuntu 22.04) is where I run into the fewest issues regarding my bluetooth headphones. I've never had an issue connecting to them.

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#78

Post by swamp40 »

swamp40 wrote: post #70

I'm pretty sure Apple got some tweaks put into the Bluetooth chips they use to help out with some of the connection reliability issues. Put in at the bare metal level before the stack so as to avoid breaking the "standard". Apple has also used out-of-band pairing mechanisms to enhance the customer experience. But again, there is only so much they can do. There are many problems built into the standard and so there wa…

Having said all that, BLE is an amazing technology and is improving slowly.

You can track your dog or purse or car anywhere in the world, all using a CR2032 coin cell battery that will last for years.

It provides your phone with an easy extension into the real world, which has thousands of use cases.

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#79

Post by tpmx »

swamp40 wrote: post #70

I'm pretty sure Apple got some tweaks put into the Bluetooth chips they use to help out with some of the connection reliability issues. Put in at the bare metal level before the stack so as to avoid breaking the "standard". Apple has also used out-of-band pairing mechanisms to enhance the customer experience. But again, there is only so much they can do. There are many problems built into the standard and so there wa…

I'm pretty sure Apple got some tweaks put into the Bluetooth chips they use to help out with some of the connection reliability issues. Put in at the bare metal level before the stack so as to avoid breaking the "standard".

I'm not a Bluetooth expert but that doesn't sound right. Surely the vast majority of BT complexity in a modern stack is in the software?

Also, if you're "breaking the standard" in a closed system like in an Apple product, who cares if you're doing it in software or hardware?

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#80

Post by vel0city »

tehjoker wrote: post #59
simonh wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I make an exception for ear buds, because the utility of being able to stand up, and walk around with my hands free and unencumbered by a tether while on a call, is just so great. It helps that Air Pods are among the best implementation there is, but even they are not perfect. I had to disable automatic device switching or they would occasionally get confused and drop the connection to the current device.

i just thread the wire under my shirt, it's pretty similar and you can take the earbuds off and they just hang there

That's kind of OK if you're connecting to a mobile device in your pocket, but there are lots of things I use headphones with. I might be connected to my phone, I might be connected to my laptop, I might be connected to my desktop. Maybe my phone is in my pocket, maybe its on the desk, maybe its on my coffee table across the room.

My wireless headphones work all throughout the house without having to have a device physically on me. I can be listening to a call on my computer, get up and walk to the kitchen, make a snack, and walk back to my office and never miss a beat.

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