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Ask HN: What do engineers never talk to their bosses about, but should?

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Re: Ask HN: What do engineers never talk to their bosses about, but should?

#71

Post by giantg2 »

dahart wrote: post #68
giantg2 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Is it possible your manager was surprised by your PTO, or did you plan well in advance and remind them beforehand? Did you communicate the extra hours you were putting in before and during the time you were doing it?" Yeah, they knew. I sent emails to the team and others that I worked with to let them know, filled out the team calendar, and turn on my OOO notifications. All the expected behaviors. Yeah, I'll never m…

It might be good to define more carefully what “fair compensation” actually means. CEO vs employee isn’t a very good analogy, IMO. It’s broken for sure, but it doesn’t make a good comparison. Software engineers these days are making very good money and have very good working conditions compared to most other industries, even among other skilled white collar careers like doctors. What’s “fair” is a fairly vague and re…

I mean fair compensation practices. For example, I wouldn't consider it a fair practice to pay a lower rate for a higher level job by requiring consistently longer hours. I also don't consider it a fair practice to ignore policies related to ratings (which influence promotions and bonuses). The least they can do is follow their own rules. I get that some parts of equality and equity can be vague. I think this is a good example of a broken economic system if the position with more expectations pays less. It's illogical and I think it would be hard for anyone to defend it as fair - my manager certainly couldn't.

"Software engineers these days are making very good money and have very good working conditions compared to most other industries, even among other skilled white collar careers like doctors."

I think the compensation and conditions really depend on a lot of things. The median salary for software devs is about $100k-110k and are largely located in above average COL areas. I earn under $100k, have almost 10 years experience, and an MSIS. I consider the money to be ok, not "very good". The physical conditions are good, but the psychological conditions can be bad in some instances (just look at all the burnout).

For example, I know a guy who started at $90k as a diesel electric mechanic with great benefits. That's tens of thousands saved in college costs. Plus you can start working sooner. Plenty of jobs can pay that kind of money, so I don't see software dev as anything special.

I've tried the communication/negotiation part. It didn't work. The managers have almost no power within the large corporate structure. So I adjusted my willingness down to match the pay. If I actually want to make more, I'll just leave (although that's not an option due to constraints in my personal life). Another thing to note is that value is a tricky thing to measure in a IT as a cost center model. For example, how do you value security work?

It's funny, the company has been going on and on for years about the war for talent, talent shortage, etc. It's all just PR for the current employees to feel safe. They won't actually do anything to retain people.

Re: Ask HN: What do engineers never talk to their bosses about, but should?

#72

Post by dahart »

giantg2 wrote: post #71
dahart wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be good to define more carefully what “fair compensation” actually means. CEO vs employee isn’t a very good analogy, IMO. It’s broken for sure, but it doesn’t make a good comparison. Software engineers these days are making very good money and have very good working conditions compared to most other industries, even among other skilled white collar careers like doctors. What’s “fair” is a fairly vague and re…

I mean fair compensation practices. For example, I wouldn't consider it a fair practice to pay a lower rate for a higher level job by requiring consistently longer hours. I also don't consider it a fair practice to ignore policies related to ratings (which influence promotions and bonuses). The least they can do is follow their own rules. I get that some parts of equality and equity can be vague. I think this is a go…

> The least they can do is follow their own rules.

Do you have any avenues to report policy breaking anonymously?

> I know a guy who started at $90k as a diesel electric mechanic with great benefits. That’s tens of thousands saved in college costs. Plus you can start working sooner.

It does happen for sure, but be aware that this is a widely shared narrative talking point that comes from a political agenda. The US Fed publishes statistics about this exact issue, and I was really surprised how big the average difference in earnings is for college degrees - it’s about 2x for an accredited bachelor’s diploma on average across the entire US. It’s 3x for advanced degrees. I thought the average would be maybe 15 or 20 percent, but a 2x average for all Americans is freaking enormous and should not be written off with anecdotes. Note also that the gap is growing, not shrinking, and has been for a long time.

https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/review/2019/10/...

https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/economic-synops...

Anyway, that’s interesting stuff, but beside the more important business of improving your personal situation, and my rantings probably don’t help. It sounds like you’re in a bit of a stuck / bad situation. I’m sorry to hear that and I hope you can find a way to improve it and enjoy your work. Managers with no power certainly could be one of the reasons that managers get petty and pushy with their teams. I know it’s not fun though. Good luck!

Re: Ask HN: What do engineers never talk to their bosses about, but should?

#73

Post by giantg2 »

dahart wrote: post #72
giantg2 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean fair compensation practices. For example, I wouldn't consider it a fair practice to pay a lower rate for a higher level job by requiring consistently longer hours. I also don't consider it a fair practice to ignore policies related to ratings (which influence promotions and bonuses). The least they can do is follow their own rules. I get that some parts of equality and equity can be vague. I think this is a go…

> The least they can do is follow their own rules. Do you have any avenues to report policy breaking anonymously? > I know a guy who started at $90k as a diesel electric mechanic with great benefits. That’s tens of thousands saved in college costs. Plus you can start working sooner. It does happen for sure, but be aware that this is a widely shared narrative talking point that comes from a political agenda. The US Fe…

The anonymous reporting is never really anonymous if it comes from a device on the VPN. I've heard they don't do anything about it when it is reported. I might give that a try next time, but I doubt it will make a difference based on what some others have said about past experiences.

Yeah, I've seen a lot of the BLS stuff. I'd love to see some more location specific stuff. It's really not unusual for a skilled tradesman like an electrician, plumber, or mechanic to be making over $75k in my area and yet it seems that many of the Dev jobs are around that salary. Specifically when looking at wealth, I wonder if lifestyle plays a large role. I feel like many of the tradesmen I know like to spend that money on somewhat expensive hobbies and don't know as much about investing (ie college grads generally take a an econ course).

I don't know. I guess I'm just jaded and burnt out.

Re: Ask HN: What do engineers never talk to their bosses about, but should?

#74

Post by hashkb »

pc86 wrote: post #49
hashkb wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Screw the site guidelines - drive-by downvoting this comment is highly suspicious, and cowardly.

I can't even begin to imagine the bubble you must live in to ascribe words like suspicion and cowardice to someone clicking a button on a forum even most software developers in the world have never even heard of.

You could try. I'd assume it was downvoted by folks who perpetuate said double-talk. If there was a defense, they'd have articulated it. But, since anonymous downvoting is easier and less risky, that's what happens. Silencing the discussion about downvotes is a meta downvote that we shouldn't accept just because it's in the guidelines.

Re: Ask HN: What do engineers never talk to their bosses about, but should?

#75

Post by hashkb »

neogodless wrote: post #63
giantg2 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only because you broke the guidelines and commented to create a generic tangent. My edit to ask about why I was being downvoted is based on curiosity - a key pillar of this site. If people have a divergent opinion strong enough to downvote, then I would like to read it to understand more. Furthermore, my comment was not about comment voting, but about identifying and understanding that opposing position. I out…

I'm not trolling. I'm trying to improve discourse. Doesn't mean I'm right (as my own comment downvotes indicate) but that was my intention.

I'm trying to improve discourse by fighting against the downvote. It's my opinion it harms discourse significantly. It's low signal, and not constructive. It has an obvious chilling effect on dissent. Nothing upholds echo chambers more than the downvote.

Re: Ask HN: What do engineers never talk to their bosses about, but should?

#76

Post by ochronus »

giantg2 wrote: post #70
ochronus wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry it's like that at your place :( I have a different experience, thankfully - both when I was an engineer and now as a manager. A good manager (in a company with the right culture) can help you streamline your efforts. In a proper company a manager doesn't "get you promoted" but helps you demonstrate that you're on the next level.

Do you have more info on what that looks like? I guess I'm just lost.

Usually you have a tons of directions you can grow as an engineer. Some examples: you can become a subject matter expert in one stack, you can get good at multiple stacks, you can do public speaking, blogging, open source contributions, you can become various kinds of a tech leader (from leading projects to driving engineering principles in the org), you can mentor others, etc. - while this is all growth, it's nearly impossible to do all at once. Your manager can help you in at least 3 ways:

1. help you realize what is personally interesting for you from all this (you'd be surprised how many people don't know this!)

2. help you filter this list by what's currently important for the team/org, so basically find the intersection of what's interesting for you AND recognized in the company

3. help you find effective ways and support. This comes in many forms, e.g. pointing you to opportunities (hey, do you want to lead the next project?), finding you mentors or mentees in the org, coaching you directly (e.g. in leadership), getting you a tech writer to help you with blogging, connect you to people, etc.

About the promotion bit: you own that part. Your manager can tell you 2 things:

1. If you want to get promoted, which growth directions and actions to take

2. Whether they think you're ready or not

Re: Ask HN: What do engineers never talk to their bosses about, but should?

#77

Post by giantg2 »

ochronus wrote: post #76
giantg2 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have more info on what that looks like? I guess I'm just lost.

Usually you have a tons of directions you can grow as an engineer. Some examples: you can become a subject matter expert in one stack, you can get good at multiple stacks, you can do public speaking, blogging, open source contributions, you can become various kinds of a tech leader (from leading projects to driving engineering principles in the org), you can mentor others, etc. - while this is all growth, it's nearly…

My experience is that managers just tell you what to focus on for what the team needs. They don't care about the person's needs. They certainly don't offer very good career advice (the new model are DCLs that are basically just senior devs that spend 60% of their time leading people). I guess I have bad managers.

For example, I switched to the current team a little over a year ago and it's just non-stop context switching. I'm expected to work in and know multiple and technologies (java, python, DB2, Dynamo, all manner of AWS stuff, and a bunch of vender products like Splunk and Tableau). Subsets of the applications that we own have turned over and shifted around twice in this time. I'm constantly being pulled off of one story to work on another because something broke or the business has an urgent need.

I'm told I'm slow. My manager and I even agree that I'm slower than I was in other teams because we didn't have that much context switching. They said there's nothing they can do about context switching. So I said it sounds like I should move to a team with less context switching that that would provide a better environment to succeed. They immediately tried to talk me out of it. I'm not sure if she was actually dumb or if she was just playing dumb, but she couldn't even comprehend how being on a team with less context switching would be beneficial to me.

Re: Ask HN: What do engineers never talk to their bosses about, but should?

#78

Post by ochronus »

giantg2 wrote: post #77
ochronus wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually you have a tons of directions you can grow as an engineer. Some examples: you can become a subject matter expert in one stack, you can get good at multiple stacks, you can do public speaking, blogging, open source contributions, you can become various kinds of a tech leader (from leading projects to driving engineering principles in the org), you can mentor others, etc. - while this is all growth, it's nearly…

My experience is that managers just tell you what to focus on for what the team needs. They don't care about the person's needs. They certainly don't offer very good career advice (the new model are DCLs that are basically just senior devs that spend 60% of their time leading people). I guess I have bad managers. For example, I switched to the current team a little over a year ago and it's just non-stop context switc…

I understand this is your experience and I think it sucks big time. It shouldn't be like this at all. Yet, this doesn't mean it's like that at all places with all managers.

Re: Ask HN: What do engineers never talk to their bosses about, but should?

#79

Post by ochronus »

giantg2 wrote: post #77
ochronus wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually you have a tons of directions you can grow as an engineer. Some examples: you can become a subject matter expert in one stack, you can get good at multiple stacks, you can do public speaking, blogging, open source contributions, you can become various kinds of a tech leader (from leading projects to driving engineering principles in the org), you can mentor others, etc. - while this is all growth, it's nearly…

My experience is that managers just tell you what to focus on for what the team needs. They don't care about the person's needs. They certainly don't offer very good career advice (the new model are DCLs that are basically just senior devs that spend 60% of their time leading people). I guess I have bad managers. For example, I switched to the current team a little over a year ago and it's just non-stop context switc…

Also, don't get me wrong, I struggle a LOT with figuring out that overlap/cross-section I talked about... and I fck things up probably many times. I do care (a lot!) though for my engineers' needs and interests! Both because I relate to them as a person and both because this is the only sensible long-term strategy for having motivated people (and have them stay AND grow).
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