Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#71

Post by jameshart » Thu, May 06, 2021, 1:03 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #55

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #17

Relatively few engineers actually want to do contract work. The day rates look high, but they have to pay self-employment taxes and health insurance, as well as charge more to cover inevitable gaps between contracts. It seems unlikely that the existence of contract work is preventing senior engineers from joining your company. To be blunt, it’s more likely that you’re simply not paying enough to be competitive or you…

> Relatively few engineers actually want to do contract work. The better contractors I've worked with all do, here in the UK. The day rates are high. The taxes are the same or lower, health insurance is optional. There's some company insurances you need and you have to get an accountant, but all-in that should be covered by less than a week of work each year. Gaps between contracts are desirable! Having a whole summe…

I mean, it’s not surprising that people who are doing well in the contract market like the contract market.

For my part, I literally left the UK in part because the industry there was so geared towards contract work or boutique contract houses as the only viable career path for senior developers. It’s just not for everyone. I like staying with a product team and building and owning stuff; I like companies that build their technology in-house rather than outsourcing; I like being able to shape what the technology team contributes to the business rather than respond to already-baked RFPs. I like stock-based comp.

The UK tech job market is very well suited to certain kinds of developers and certain kinds of relationships between businesses (and frequently government organizations) and their technology providers.

It’s not the only way though.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#72

Post by demygale » Thu, May 06, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

You don’t have to match contract wages. There are benefits other than salary that contractors don’t have access to.

But let’s be honest. It’s a marketplace. The solution to hiring is more money. That’s how capitalism works.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#73

Post by teachingassist » Thu, May 06, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

> impossible to match day rates pro-rata

You're not expected to match day rates if you're offering a permanent contract.

I usually advise people doing contract work to charge at least double what they would otherwise get in full-time employment, just to account for their additional costs and time spent on admin.

Compare permanent senior engineers rates with permanent senior engineers rates, rather than with day rates - it's a completely different frame of reference.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#74

Post by _0o6v » Thu, May 06, 2021, 1:06 PM UTC

yosito wrote: post #39

Start by not calling them Snr Engs. That makes it sound like you don't value them and view them as a comodity that you can't be arsed to write out completely. Not to mention, it won't come up in a search when active, motivated candidates are looking for new opportunities. This is not just a nitpick. If someone emailed me looking for a "Snr Eng", the email is getting deleted and flagged as spam.

OP here. There is a character limit on the title.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#75

Post by chrisseaton » Thu, May 06, 2021, 1:06 PM UTC

softwaredoug wrote: post #58

I switched from consulting to a company. In short contracting is a headache if what you care about is doing good tech work. Rates in the contract world represent a lot of overhead and headaches you experience there: 1. Payment risk: chances someone doesn’t pay you is surprisingly high. A lot of time is just spent chasing down your money. 2. Poor payment terms: being able to bill after 30 days of work is actually seen…

How on earth do they justify anything except next-day payment? If they can't pay a few thousand dollars what is going on with their cashflow?

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#76

Post by jameshart » Thu, May 06, 2021, 1:06 PM UTC

ericbarrett wrote: post #68

jameshart wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re shooting yourself in the foot by ignoring companies that take pride in offering an agile development environment. There are, sure, places that have control-through-forced-scrum as their management philosophy who will call themselves ‘agile’; but there are also places that practice exactly what you’re looking for: getting out of the way of tech practitioners, giving them direct access to stakeholders to decide…

From my personal experience across multiple jobs: For every company that tries to embody the old Agile Manifesto there are a dozen who've simply plugged The Latest Trendy Management Practice into that module slot and are continuing business as usual. No, thanks.

Right, and for every company who advertises ‘competitive compensation’ and means it there are a dozen whose idea of competitive comp is that they’ll match an offer to retain you later.

You do need to filter through some BSers to find a good job but that doesn’t mean any company that claims anything good about themselves is lying.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#77

Post by detaro » Thu, May 06, 2021, 1:07 PM UTC

_0o6v wrote: post #74

yosito wrote: post #39

Start by not calling them Snr Engs. That makes it sound like you don't value them and view them as a comodity that you can't be arsed to write out completely. Not to mention, it won't come up in a search when active, motivated candidates are looking for new opportunities. This is not just a nitpick. If someone emailed me looking for a "Snr Eng", the email is getting deleted and flagged as spam.

OP here. There is a character limit on the title.

Ah yeah, don't do this either :P

(EDIT: parent has edited their comment)

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#78

Post by throwaway01931 » Thu, May 06, 2021, 1:08 PM UTC

I accepted a role at a modest day rate and turned down offers from FAANGs. Why?

1. The project is entirely FOSS and in an interesting problem space

2. 100% remote work, with flexible time

3. There's no scrum/agile ceremonies and similar corporate stuff

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#79

Post by cik » Thu, May 06, 2021, 1:09 PM UTC

As someone who spent years contracting, realize that for the most part you're not competing on price. You're competing on value. Day rates aren't usually higher than the fully loaded cost of an employee - but they are higher than the salaried cost.

The flip side is that many people (myself included) frankly were tired of the abuse of full time, and not valuing our time. Contracting eliminated all of that - it was pay to play. You'd be shocked how the second you become a contractor (in the right org) you're actually doing significantly more of the work you were hired to do - whether that's coding, architecture, or stitching. But these come to mind immediately.

1. Provide interesting problems that need solving. Be specific about them.

2. Ship; one thing I've noticed repeatedly is that many organizations are "allergic to shipping".

3. Go global. There's a massive talent pool, and many people are more than happy to work 'perm' from not your location.

Don't make the mistake in thinking that a permanent employee is more engaged than a contractor. A professional is a professional regardless of contract type.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#80

Post by dominotw » Thu, May 06, 2021, 1:09 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #17

Relatively few engineers actually want to do contract work. The day rates look high, but they have to pay self-employment taxes and health insurance, as well as charge more to cover inevitable gaps between contracts. It seems unlikely that the existence of contract work is preventing senior engineers from joining your company. To be blunt, it’s more likely that you’re simply not paying enough to be competitive or you…

yes exactly. I did contracting when i was single and young. Contracting requires you to tolerate random loss of income, paying health insurance yourself ( in usa), traveling, unpredictable work schedules. Its impossible to afford health insurance for the family, traveling ect when you have kids.