Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#71

Post by neogodless » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

at_a_remove wrote: post #64

I think that you can take all of the differentiators that exist for ICE vehicles (price, reliability, status ...) and then add in some new factors: 1) Range anxiety 2) Recharge concerns (plays into range anxiety) 3) Novel technology fears (will my trusted mechanic of twenty years be able to handle this or am I stuck with the dealership?) 4) "Handling" -- will this drive like my old ICE car? Apparently a major irritat…

#2 (and #1) is really important, even if it shouldn't be. When you buy a car, you're plunking down $40,000 (apparently[0]!) and trying to cover every use case you're going to have over the next 5 years. So that trip you make to the beach once each summer, or visiting grandma on her half-mile dirt lane, or the one time you get caught at work when it's snowing too heavily for the plows to keep up... you need 350 mile range, AWD, all-season tires, 6 seats, massive luggage space, perfect map/navigation integration with your phone...

Given my other comment about the massive variety of cars (not just EVs) that people want to buy, people want choice, and right now you do not get great choices when it comes to charging station networks. I believe that mass adoption will not happen until interchangeable charging stations are ubiquitous, even if more than half of car owners could get by on charging overnight at home 363 days a year.

[0] https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/average-new-car-price-202...

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#72

Post by bin_bash » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

twobitshifter wrote: post #39

If someone can get full self driving and patents it, they’ll have the market. Software is where we are seeing most innovation right now. Self parking, 3D surround cameras, accident avoidance, auto lane change, etc. I think you’re correct that there will be less appeal from a technical performance perspective to buy an individual brand. All EVs have fast enough acceleration (some dangerously so.) So competition there…

Will a company be able to claim a carte blanche patent over self-driving?

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#73

Post by throw1234651234 » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

chad_strategic wrote: post #70

I believe what you are asking here is the fundamental question marketing and branding have trying to solve since well the invention of economic choice of products. (Coke or Pepsi) The advertising industry has made billions and billions trying to convince very similar products are the unique and different.

Do Coke and Pepsi really compete? They seem to be content with running ads reminding people that they still exist, but I don't see any targeted against each other. Seems they are willing to co-exist as the two "leading" brands that people think of interchangeably.

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#74

Post by totemandtoken » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 3:29 PM UTC

It's kind of a moot point because we still don't really have the infrastructure (read: charging stations) to support EVs. At that point, the most competitive EVs will be whatever integrates with the infrastructure the best. Even if some luxury brands that attempt vendor lock-in are still around cough Tesla cough, they'll probably have to make some offering that most people can use to remain competitive.

But until that point, it's all based on luxury status and branding (imho).

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#75

Post by throw1234651234 » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 3:30 PM UTC

easton wrote: post #30

naskwo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point for trying start a HN discussion on this topic is exactly this: I think that "perception" will be more narrow than it is now, as all cars look more and more alike, and the quantifiable differences such as: - range - safety features - audio system - etc - acceleration Will be more difficult for high-end brands (Range Roger, Porsche) to use as discerning factors if the "heart" of the vehicle is largely identic…

People still buy Omega and Rolex even if they don’t wear them every day. My dad uses a Fitbit instead of an Apple Watch so he can wear his nice watch and still get the data. In the car market, the “heart” has been the same for a long time. The Honda Accord has about as luxurious (at least 90%, you get leather, great driving sensors, strong V6, etc.) of any luxury sedan under 100k, but people still buy those. Those br…

This is a super interesting topic to me - I basically don't consider buying anything other than a Civic. A new car is a HUGE expense to me (that I have never made in my life yet), but the more I think about it, the more ridiculous the inflation on a BMW 3-series (for example) becomes. People are genuinely paying an extra $20,000 for the badge. At least in the US, where parts, labor, and all associated costs are also more expensive on OEM imports.

The mental coping mechanism is also the fact that Honda/Toyota make a ridiculous amounts of civics/corollas/accords/camrys, so they have to have efficiencies of scale going for them more so than other company's line ups.

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#76

Post by throw1234651234 » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 3:31 PM UTC

johnsonap wrote: post #15

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #4

It will probably just stay the same as now. People will buy based on a perception of brand quality based on reliability, coupled with how the car looks on the inside and outside.

Yeah I was going to ask a similar question, which is for the average family sedan, I wonder how much the average person cares about anything beyond creature comforts/saftey that would also be differentiable in an EV. I doubt families are making decisions around the powertrain beyond MPGs/efficiency, which would also be differentiable by way of range

Well, there is the performance crowd who cares about RPM and dropping the clutch, but my understanding is that they are such a tiny % that companies only care for them for being able to associate good qualities of the "sports" cars with their main line.

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#77

Post by neogodless » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 3:33 PM UTC

throw1234651234 wrote: post #73

chad_strategic wrote: post #70

I believe what you are asking here is the fundamental question marketing and branding have trying to solve since well the invention of economic choice of products. (Coke or Pepsi) The advertising industry has made billions and billions trying to convince very similar products are the unique and different.

Do Coke and Pepsi really compete? They seem to be content with running ads reminding people that they still exist, but I don't see any targeted against each other. Seems they are willing to co-exist as the two "leading" brands that people think of interchangeably.

Brands used to (and sometimes still do) attack each other in ads, or at least do something like "in a blind taste test" to demonstrate they were superior. Perhaps newer research has shown this to be ineffective, so it might be less common now. (Just last month Intel was doing Intel PC vs Mac ads, and Microsoft has been doing PC vs Mac ads lately.)

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#78

Post by misiti3780 » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

schwartzworld wrote: post #12

pmorici wrote: post #6

At least in the next decade people are going to care about range, charge speed (measured in miles per hour, in part a measure of efficiency) and software quality. So called super car brands will pivot to market on subjective qualities like “handling” since they can no longer complete on performance.

Range could be less of an issue if charge speed is fast enough.

In the last Elon/Rogan podcast, he talked about range and said that at a certain point it really doesnt matter, because most people just end up carrying around the extra range and never using it. That number is probably around 400 miles

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#79

Post by VBprogrammer » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 3:50 PM UTC

pmorici wrote: post #25

throwawayboise wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Range needs to be a few hundred miles regardless. Nobody wants to stop and recharge every 90 minutes. Range, charging speed, and availability of rapid charging points that is close to the availability of gas stations are all essential.

Yeah that is why I think Aptera is kind of interesting they are concentrating on maximizing range through maximizing efficiency and when you pass a certain efficiency threshold integrated solar charging becomes viable. If they make it to production I can see them being successful with people who don’t need a larger car and live in places where they can’t install a dedicated charger in their parking spot.

I have a 30 year old diesel camper van which we use once every few weeks. Being a mechanically injected diesel Toyota so it's pretty reliable, the only thing that lets it down is the battery, especially over the winter when it gets used even less frequently.

The obvious solution to this is a small solar panel to keep the battery topped up.

It had never occurred that I'd have to be very careful to park the van in an area where it has good direct sunlight (it's only a 10w panel so anything less than direct sunlight means it's barely producing enough to support the charge controller). The street in which I usually park is south facing but has tallish buildings on both sides.

The upshot of this is I can can't imagine how frustrating it would be if I was counting on the solar panels on the car contributing to its range.

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#80

Post by decafninja » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 3:54 PM UTC

I feel design has always been a selling feature, and will continue to be so. People have always cared about how their car looks.

My wife has little interest in the driving and performance aspect of cars, and generally isn't into the blingbling aspect either. However she loves Porsche because she thinks they are some of the most beautiful cars in the world.

She is a fashion designer by trade, so her perspective is the opposite of yours - she would choose the Balenciaga because she feels the design is worth the premium despite being functionally the same (if not worse) than the Nike.

Speaking of Porsche, as well as other sporty manufacturers such as say, BMW (let's ignore the oldtimers cries of "BMW has lost its way!" for now), I think they're pushing the aspect of handling and "driving feel" as a differentiator even for their EVs vs. say, Tesla's offerings. Porsche can kinda do this IMHO because of their traditional market position, but other brands might have a harder time.

For example - Mazda. Praised by journalists and auto enthusiasts for having superb handling and driving feel. However most people in the market for a Mazda (Miata being an exception) probably don't care at all about how a car/CUV handles.