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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#71

Post by foogazi »

trcollinson wrote: post #43
Jyaif wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 3 years in the US you earn significantly more than in 5 years in France, so the vacation and health coverage arguments do not hold, unless you have an expensive illness (>30k$ per year). The job security on the other hand is very real, so if you want to coast at your job, europe is the way to go.

I make pretty good money as a consultant. Last year I had 180 hours of saved vacation time (4.5 weeks). I gave up 115.5 hours of that on January 1 because I didn't use it. I expect I will lose a similar amount on next January 1st. I did get 6 federal holidays off. I used a bit of vacation to also take the day after Thanksgiving, the day before Christmas, and New Year's Eve off. I paid $8400 in insurance premiums for…

I don’t get this. As a consultant do you get time off? If so why didn’t you use your vacation time? Why not take December off?

Did working those extra weeks mean more value to you?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#72

Post by novok »

tolbish wrote: post #5

Careful what you wish for. The US has no guaranteed paternity/maternity leave, and the majority of workplaces have less than a month of vacation time. Then there is the healthcare system.

The american average vacation time is not the reality at tech firms. I easily get 1 month or more of vacation working at a large one. Same with 3-6mo+parental leave being very common along with fairly decent healthcare because your employed by a wealthy company.

Things that are not good for the average american is not the reality for the average big-tech software engineer and you have to compare apples to apples.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#73

Post by iso1631 »

xxpor wrote: post #62
LatteLazy wrote: post #27

You need to increase demand: * Offer tax breaks for tech startups. The UK has a whole suite of these and London is number one in EU (out of now) for tech startups * Similarly non-tax pro-entrepreneur reforms and help: bankruptcy protections (the US does this very well, the UK very badly); access to mortgages / leases and credit for the self employed; better management of taxes and benefits; reform of regulation for s…

Reading about how the bankruptcy system works in the UK a few years ago (when Thomas Cook collapsed) was mind blowing. How could any system where the firm has to cease operations immediately no matter the circumstance be considered a good idea?

If you run out of money then you're screwed.

What do you do if you are a person who runs out of money and can't pay debt? Surely you have your assets repossessed and some form of debt charge hanging over you for some time so you can't get into that position again (or rather that others will know not to lend you money again)

Is it different in the US?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#74

Post by [deleted] »

trcollinson wrote: post #43
Jyaif wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 3 years in the US you earn significantly more than in 5 years in France, so the vacation and health coverage arguments do not hold, unless you have an expensive illness (>30k$ per year). The job security on the other hand is very real, so if you want to coast at your job, europe is the way to go.

I make pretty good money as a consultant. Last year I had 180 hours of saved vacation time (4.5 weeks). I gave up 115.5 hours of that on January 1 because I didn't use it. I expect I will lose a similar amount on next January 1st. I did get 6 federal holidays off. I used a bit of vacation to also take the day after Thanksgiving, the day before Christmas, and New Year's Eve off. I paid $8400 in insurance premiums for…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#75

Post by jopsen »

friedman23 wrote: post #63
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I don't think you've fully thought through your position. You making less isn't some altruistic thing. You making less directly contributes to your (already likely wealthy) boss making more. It's not like you making less means the poor live better lives, it's essentially donating money to your employer.

And by switching to a better paying job you end up working somewhere that produces more value per engineer, which in turns makes the world wealthier.. which overall is good :)

That said, I don't think it's just a matter of culture.

Also just because capitalism likely makes the world better on average, doesn't mean we all have to go ferengi and dedicate our lives to pursuit of maximum profit :D (Perhaps there is a balance)

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#76

Post by refurb »

trcollinson wrote: post #3

Do you mean a particular part of Europe? I only ask because there are more factors than salary. I have friends who have moved to work in France, Norway, and Germany. They do make markedly less than I do on my US salary. However, they also get: * Substantially more actual vacation time * Substantially cheaper and yet similar health, dental, and vision coverage * Less risk/stress associated with job security * A very s…

Obviously it’s a personal choice as to what’s important, but the salary difference between the US and EU is still larger than any of the financial benefits to being in the EU.

Getting 6 weeks of vacation instead of 3? I’d still rather take the extra $150k. Having to shell out $15k for healthcare each year? I’d still take the extra $150k.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#77

Post by iso1631 »

LaEc wrote: post #2

Lower income tax. Lower corporate tax. Eliminate onerous labour laws. Eliminate unnecessary regulation. Improve English education. Raise public sector tech salaries. Stronger accounting and capital market regulations. Stronger contract laws.

> Lower income tax

Why would that increase gross salaries?

> Lower corporate tax

Why would that increase gross salaries? Corperations pay the minimum they can for the product they get

> Eliminate unnecessary regulation

Well the UK has just created a ton, so that's unlikely to happen, but what specific regulation, and how does it keep wages low?

> Improve English education

They should try that in the States first

> Raise public sector tech salaries

That doesn't really mesh with lowering taxes

> Stronger accounting and capital market regulations

Seems the opposite to elimintating regulations

> Stronger contract laws.

In what specific way?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#79

Post by johnqpub »

giantg2 wrote: post #33
quantumofalpha wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then there is the healthcare system. European healthcare systems are not exactly dream come true either. Range of treatments available/covered and waiting times can be significantly behind the US. US healthcare is actually great for an SWE making bank at a FAANG & co. Just not that amazing for common folks > The US has no guaranteed paternity/maternity leave Top tech companies all have those, it's a fairly cheap pe…

I agree that the healthcare system isn't a dream from what I hear. The main thing I see with the parent's comment though is that in the US you might be making $100k, but paying $15-20k in insurance costs. Whereas you might only be making $80k in the EU but you don't have that same insurance costs. I see this as being the same cost (ignoring the other factors per the OPs request) but just hiding the cost from the empl…

The thing is in the US, generally the more you make the lower your insurance costs are.

I made ~$300k last year at a FAANG (Sr. engineer), and my healthcare costs were:

$29/month in premiums $200/month in an HSA, which I'm saving for retirement (complicated US income tax reasons), so money I don't available for my use but it doesn't go into a black hole either. $1500 deducible $3000 total out of pocket

I had a sudden health condition last year, before covid fortunatly, so I maxed out my insurance. So my total costs ended up being $3348 + HSA contributions.

I'm in Washington State, so there's no state income tax, my effective federal tax rate will probably be about 27%.

I'd love to Europe, but it's hard looking at the numbers to justify it. Even if I were willing to take a 50% cut in take home pay, I doubt I could find a job that paid that much.

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