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Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

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Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#71

Post by jandrewrogers »

djaahk wrote: post #8
thr0waway2 wrote: post #2

London wasn't that great when it comes to tech jobs compared to US/Canada. Starting salary for grads at FANGs is around a third of what it is at large US cities when living costs are no more than 30-40% lower for example. Compared to rest of Europe London is a lot better with notable exception of Switzerland which is a non-EU country. So to me it would seem that membership in EU is not a necessary condition for good…

I always feel like salary comparisons are a little biased by a slightly US-centric definition of a comfortable lifestyle (e.g. including a car, parking, bigger house requirements, etc) as well as underestimating some built-in benefits of other countries like free healthcare. Are there good sources out there that would afford a holistic cost comparison of a typical London lifestyle (Tube, 1-bedroom in Zone 1-2, weeken…

The typical London lifestyle for people with a respectable income -- tech money, not finance money -- is more like living in Zone 3 and working in Zone 1. I think there is a lot of proportionality between standard of lifestyle and income between London and expensive US cities, a similar level of income buying a similar lifestyle (adjusted for local context). A big difference is that high incomes are much more widely distributed across industries in the US than London. If you are a middle manager in a boring industry like publishing, you aren't going to get £150k in London but you can in the US, even outside the big cities. The diversity of people that can afford an upper-middle class lifestyle in the US is much greater. Even dialing back US standards of lifestyle to something contextually appropriate, the kind of work that affords a "comfortable" lifestyle is much narrower in London.

An under-rated feature of US cities is the diversity of occupations that can command relatively high incomes. London does this better than many European cities but it still has a long way to go. Living on a tech salary in London is a bit like living on a good non-tech salary in SF or Seattle. Comfortable in the abstract but there is visibly a tier of people that the city culture values much more.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#72

Post by burnthrow »

adav wrote: post #50

Too early to tell. If you’re coming from a less well-off country and have the flexibility to take advantage of any post-Brexit easier immigration flux, I’d definitely take the risk and go for it. If you’re coming from a country that’s roughly as prosperous and have some luxury of time, I’d delay any decision by at least a year. There will most likely still be more opportunity in London than anywhere else in Europe, b…

> post-Brexit easier immigration flux

Care to elaborate?

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#73

Post by jonwinstanley »

foldr wrote: post #66
rich_sasha wrote: post #22

I saw a list of European unicorns (on HN in fact I think) and probably about 2/3 were UK/London based. That’s right now. The other ones are scattered around, so this might be your best bet in this part of the world. As another comment says, you’ll mostly get political comments, so here goes: UK universities, while still very good, are dropping quite significantly in various league tables since Brexit. This is for a r…

>On the flip side, finance was thought to leave London en masse, and didn’t It's a bit early to say, isn't it? Finance is still working under temporary arrangements. Most of the regulations regarding services remain to be negotiated.

Yes and the actual deal with the EU was only made public yesterday.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#74

Post by nextweek2 »

All bets are off. Covid showed we don't need bums in seats for tech jobs and people can be trusted.

Brexit will only have an effect if the government do something big like make a massive tax haven for certain industries and there's only talk of increasing taxes to pay for Covid.

Pick a place for the people not the scene. Be a digital nomad until you find a connection.

The UK is good for a market to sell into because of the strength of the pound and because it's a service based economy. These two things are not going to change.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#75

Post by Ma8ee »

0xy wrote: post #12
thr0waway2 wrote: post #2

London wasn't that great when it comes to tech jobs compared to US/Canada. Starting salary for grads at FANGs is around a third of what it is at large US cities when living costs are no more than 30-40% lower for example. Compared to rest of Europe London is a lot better with notable exception of Switzerland which is a non-EU country. So to me it would seem that membership in EU is not a necessary condition for good…

London beats any European city by a substantial amount, even including cost of living. I don't see why that would change. Switzerland as you point out has similarly high wages. I can't see innovation, talent or companies moving to the EU at any stage. It's a regulatory horror show and has massive brain drain to places that actually pay developers reasonable wages. Developers in Sweden are paid the equivalent of 51k U…

As a developer in Stockholm in a not particularly exciting big company in a not particularly exciting position I making about $80000. I have daycare for my two kids within 200 meter from my home, and I pay less than $200 per month and kid for that. I have a safe bicycle commute that takes less than half an hour. I have the forest behind the house. In my area kids as young as 7 roam around without direct supervision on their bicycles. Im currently on paid (ok, it doesn’t cover 100% of my salary, but enough) parental leave and will be for another three months. After that I will probably use my legal right to work 80% while the kids are small. And of course free healthcare.

I know that this is far from what everyone wants, and wasn’t what I looked for 10 years ago, but for me, now, it is almost perfect. And I don’t think there’s many places in the world I can live like this.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#76

Post by Ma8ee »

0xy wrote: post #61
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finland, Sweden, and Denmark have a much healthier startup scene than the UK does. You can also go further afield and explore places like Lisbon, which have a growing buzz. In some ways they have a much healthier startup scene than SV does. You won't earn $400k - guaranteed until the restructuring and breakup layoffs hit - but you will be happier and less stressed, and your kids will be too. And you won't be living i…

I don't think you can speak for everyone when you claim not to care about literally millions of dollars in lost opportunity by not living in a country that doesn't shaft you. It's millions. The delta between the average US salary and the average EU salary is gigantic, and if invested in a conservative investment portfolio consisting of index funds means by choosing to live in the EU you're willingly giving up many mi…

All senior developers I know make significantly more than 51000.

Yeah, other people in other countries make more money, and it was a competition for who is richest when they die, Sweden would really suck. But I really enjoy my life here, and I don’t plan to wait until I retire to do that. (And I lived abroad for five years, including 2 years in the US, so I have something to compare with).

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#77

Post by rich_sasha »

foldr wrote: post #66
rich_sasha wrote: post #22

I saw a list of European unicorns (on HN in fact I think) and probably about 2/3 were UK/London based. That’s right now. The other ones are scattered around, so this might be your best bet in this part of the world. As another comment says, you’ll mostly get political comments, so here goes: UK universities, while still very good, are dropping quite significantly in various league tables since Brexit. This is for a r…

>On the flip side, finance was thought to leave London en masse, and didn’t It's a bit early to say, isn't it? Finance is still working under temporary arrangements. Most of the regulations regarding services remain to be negotiated.

Banks moved a skeletal staff to EU offices already a long time ago, and no one else.

As far as regulated business goes, it was clear from the start pretty much that there will be no passporting. The extent of other regulatory burdens remains unclear.

The point is, unless some highly unexpected new regulation comes in, it looks like banks at least kept the business and decision making in London, and only moved enough operational staff to EU to support operations there.

Funds for sure seem to have stay put in London, some moved but this is definitely a minority.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#78

Post by ben_w »

rich_sasha wrote: post #77
foldr wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>On the flip side, finance was thought to leave London en masse, and didn’t It's a bit early to say, isn't it? Finance is still working under temporary arrangements. Most of the regulations regarding services remain to be negotiated.

Banks moved a skeletal staff to EU offices already a long time ago, and no one else. As far as regulated business goes, it was clear from the start pretty much that there will be no passporting. The extent of other regulatory burdens remains unclear. The point is, unless some highly unexpected new regulation comes in, it looks like banks at least kept the business and decision making in London, and only moved enough…

> Funds for sure seem to have stay put in London, some moved but this is definitely a minority.

I’ve seen it reported that £1 trillion of assets were being moved out. Was that report incorrect, or was it a misleading number that is somehow vastly less relevant than it appears at first glance?

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/20/business/brexit-economy-b...

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#79

Post by ben_w »

0xy wrote: post #61
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finland, Sweden, and Denmark have a much healthier startup scene than the UK does. You can also go further afield and explore places like Lisbon, which have a growing buzz. In some ways they have a much healthier startup scene than SV does. You won't earn $400k - guaranteed until the restructuring and breakup layoffs hit - but you will be happier and less stressed, and your kids will be too. And you won't be living i…

I don't think you can speak for everyone when you claim not to care about literally millions of dollars in lost opportunity by not living in a country that doesn't shaft you. It's millions. The delta between the average US salary and the average EU salary is gigantic, and if invested in a conservative investment portfolio consisting of index funds means by choosing to live in the EU you're willingly giving up many mi…

Throughout my career, people have told me I don’t earn enough, that I can get paid more.

Ok, but I’m still wealthier in my 30s than most people are when they retire — my biggest regret in life to date is not having a family, not the even bigger pile of money I could’ve earned if I’d gone to Silicon Valley or invested £10k into BTC in May 2010.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#80

Post by ben_w »

0xfaded wrote: post #41
patrickdet wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Developers in the EU get shafted big time. Free health insurance is not worth half, or even one-third the salary. It’s called solidarity

No, it's called getting shafted. The EU has more or less the same wealth floating around as any other western country, but it's in total stagnation. We can argue about why this is, but the end result is that asset prices are high, while there's no incentive to cycle money through the economy in a way that allows wealth building. Not even the government is willing to spend, which is a problem because the government ha…

The EU isn’t a country, it’s a free trade area with a relatively small (normally just roughly 1% GDP) fund to help the weaker regions inside it.
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