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Ask HN: Where did you top out in math classes?

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Re: Ask HN: Where did you top out in math classes?

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the most part, life in latin america seems a lot happier than in more bureaucratically encumbered states. So I don't really buy that argument. My main point is that truly excellent thought doesn't depend on the same skills that would allow scoring highly in an IQ test. In many cases such skills would inhibit it. In an IQ test it helps to rapidly adapt to the assumed constraints of the problem and come quickly to…

For the most part, life in latin america seems a lot happier than in more bureaucratically encumbered states. So I don't really buy that argument. The millions of immigrants from there to here don't seem to buy your argument. Which Latin American countries do you mean? "... truly excellent thought doesn't depend on the same skills that would allow scoring highly in an IQ test." I happen to agree with you! One thing t…

In happiness surveys, Latin America does pretty well -- I think as a region it comes out on top.

This is contentious, but for most of the immigrants, they didn't move because the culture was more enjoyable here. Most of the Latin American immigrants had ther livelihood strip from them in two stages: one, from general industrialization pressures that have affected practically every country, forcing specialization into cash crops to compete, two, increasing competition from the USA and other countries, coupled with crop failures endemic to semi-arid areas.

The few areas in which modestly educated Latin Americans could reliably compete were in illegal cash crops (for which they had less competition in the USA), which continues to cause economic distruption and criminal activity, and manual labor. Those forced into either business might have better chances in the USA, but on the whole they're happy countries. When you're there, you can feel it.

As for success and low IQs, if I recall correctly, someone got the bright idea of testing Caltech professors while Feynman was there -- this may have been prompted after he won the nobel prize, and found out his score from highschool was 125. When they tested the professors, the scores were surprisingly low. I forget who it was, but someone got to make a big deal of his 105 score, since it was three points higher than Feynman's.

My point is that these measures can be stunningly irrelevant, and, if so, while they might have some utility for, say, selecting an undergraduate class, they are often best ignored by an individual when it comes time to decide what one is capable of.

Re: Ask HN: Where did you top out in math classes?

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

someone who could be a fine contributor to society in lots of practical, necessary fields that don't require lots of abstract thinking -- could be inspired to throw away lots of time and risk lots of frustration But the bottom line though, is that it's none of your business to determine how one should spend ones effort and life. Nobody asked for your take on parameterizing their lifes limits. Thats what living is for…

How do you go from "Nobody should prevent someone from aspiring to do what they want to do" to "It is wrong to point out that people with low IQs are very unlikely to succeed at tasks which require high IQs, and telling them that these real constraints are not real at all is cruel and insensible, since it's factually incorrect advice that will lead them to make poorer decisions."? I mean, I could tell you that if you…

since it's factually incorrect advice that will lead them to make poorer decisions

The problem with this assertion is the assumption that you have all the facts, facts meaning absolute certainty what a person is capable of given a scalar score from a test.

But that might lead you to make another comment of similar tone and content to the one to which I responded, leaving us both worse off. Do you see where I'm coming from?

I'm guessing not from a vantage point of omniscience.

I am in a business that most batteries of tests would predict I'd fail at, so I clearly don't follow your parody of my thought processes.

Not a parody, just an observation that your aggregates mean nothing to a given instantiation. And congratulations on defying what the stats say you would fail at. Hard worker, indeed.

Re: Ask HN: Where did you top out in math classes?

#73
post #31
post #6

Recent evidence tends to indicate that 'not smart enough' is probably a myth. Almost everything can be attributed to exposure and effort at some point rather than some innate smartness. A lot of advanced math takes some serious concentration to understand. For some non-practical aspects, I found that I lacked the motivation rather than ability to understand it . One particular class where I seemed to hit my tolerance…

Yup, motivation is the blocker. I have repeatedly gotten tired of math when it seemed like meaningless puzzle-solving. Why do I really care, for example, how many nonabelian groups of order 36 exist? When math seems to me like it's providing a vocabulary for framing and answering deep questions about the world, or making it computationally feasible to find the stamp of causal influence in data or design real things t…

Many branches of math start out as being "meaningless". Number theory was once widely considered meaningless until it was given importance through cryptography. The current head of Microsoft's Cambridge research location literally said to Bill Gates as she was being hired that her work was completely unrelated to computer science; her work was in combinatorial optimization. I think that may be a part of the problem: not enough math professors teach their subjects with any regards to what they are used for. Sometimes, they don't even know themselves.

Re: Ask HN: Where did you top out in math classes?

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you go from "Nobody should prevent someone from aspiring to do what they want to do" to "It is wrong to point out that people with low IQs are very unlikely to succeed at tasks which require high IQs, and telling them that these real constraints are not real at all is cruel and insensible, since it's factually incorrect advice that will lead them to make poorer decisions."? I mean, I could tell you that if you…

since it's factually incorrect advice that will lead them to make poorer decisions The problem with this assertion is the assumption that you have all the facts, facts meaning absolute certainty what a person is capable of given a scalar score from a test. But that might lead you to make another comment of similar tone and content to the one to which I responded, leaving us both worse off. Do you see where I'm coming…

I'm not arguing that in every case one should say with 100% certainty that someone's outcomes will correspond to test scores. But aiming for a math-intensive career with an IQ of 90 would be like a 5'2" guy hoping to be a basketball star, or a 7'3" guy aspiring to be a jockey. You could tell them that, with the right willpower and determination, they can make it -- or you could tell them that, with a lot less willpower and determination, they can have a much better chance of being successful elsewhere.

I would appreciate it if you could explore some middle ground between omniscience and total ignorance. Tests that actually measure stuff give you data, and proudly claiming to be unswayed by data because you can imagine an exception is not rigorous.

Re: Ask HN: Where did you top out in math classes?

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

since it's factually incorrect advice that will lead them to make poorer decisions The problem with this assertion is the assumption that you have all the facts, facts meaning absolute certainty what a person is capable of given a scalar score from a test. But that might lead you to make another comment of similar tone and content to the one to which I responded, leaving us both worse off. Do you see where I'm coming…

I'm not arguing that in every case one should say with 100% certainty that someone's outcomes will correspond to test scores. But aiming for a math-intensive career with an IQ of 90 would be like a 5'2" guy hoping to be a basketball star, or a 7'3" guy aspiring to be a jockey. You could tell them that, with the right willpower and determination, they can make it -- or you could tell them that, with a lot less willpow…

ests that actually measure stuff give you data, and proudly claiming to be unswayed by data because you can imagine an exception is not rigorous.

Agreed, and likewise I would appreciate an understanding of the lack of absolute certitude of the predictive power of said data to an instantiation without giving external factors weight.

Again, my argument was not intended as a parody, just as a nudge toward the "middle ground" you speak of.

Re: Ask HN: Where did you top out in math classes?

#76
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you're probably a victim of rote learning math classes. learning math for real (getting it) is not a linear process. lots of aha moments where lots of concepts fall into place suddenly and then you move on to more advanced things. that said, I would consider everything below calculus to be merely clever ways of tallying stones. algebra can be tricky at times (abstract algebra sucks) but it is really not that interest…

funny, I always thought it was the other way around, calculus was just a clever calculating trick, but give me a good algebra, then we can really do something :-)

yeah, i can empathize with that stance from an engineering perspective. but to me calculus feels like looking under the hood of the universe though. algebra is static, calculus is dynamic.
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