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Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

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Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#71
post #70

I founded and co-own the google group Blind Dev Works. I have posted this Ask to it. It has at least a couple of blind developers on it and a stated purpose of improving programming tools for blind developers. You are welcome to join it. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/blind-dev-works (I am seriously visually impaired, but not blind. I know a little HTML and CSS and I have a part-time position with the spiffy…

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Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The blind people I have known use a Braille display to work with a computer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_braille_display

Braille’s somewhat dying off as screenreaders become more integrated into computer systems - a system reading to you (usually at 3x speed as well) has massively more information density than a Braille display, to the point that it’s becoming less usual to learn Braille in the first place.

Last I knew, Braille displays are also pretty expensive, slow, and prone to breakage. Cool idea, but doesn’t work as well as a screenreader in practice for most people.

Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#73
post #44

One of the software engineers where I work is completely blind. I've never had a chance to interact with him as he's in a remote office unfortunately. He mainly writes in Python, bash, and C. From what I understand, every project he works on has strict formatting requirements (can't commit until the linter passes, etc.) and his screen reader is programming language aware. Although, to be honest, I feel that the thing…

I would find it very interesting to read your coworker's account of what programming is like. Or anyone's account who has to approach programming differently compared to the average person. I'd love it if more people blogged in general.

This may be of interest to you, the GP's story about the coworker reminded me of this: https://blog.aboutamazon.com/working-at-amazon/blind-since-b...

Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#74
post #36
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if it would be helpful to describe the indentation level you are on: e.g: def method_here(value): # Indentation level 0 x = 10 # Level 1 y = 5 # Level 1 if x == value # Level 1 print 'x!' # Level 2 elif y == value # Level 1 print 'y!' # Level 2 You could maybe even throw in a block number so it's clearer.

Check out how this actually works: https://github.com/derekriemer/nvda-indentone

That's awesome, thanks for sharing that!

Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#75

Hey, kudos to you for thinking about this! Background: I'm totally blind, have programmed for nearly 3 decades, kind of do the in and out of half a dozen languages thing these days. Today's favorites are Rust anywhere I can get away with it, Python because it runs in places where I need it (Home Assistant, Mycroft, etc.) and JavaScript because if I hold my nose and don't think too much about the atrocities I'm commit…

Thanks so much for your response! #4 in particular is something I hadn’t considered, except in the context of how to display error messages in an editor, but now it seems obvious that the most relevant information should be closest to your focus.

As for #3, my compiler is intended to be all-in-one: there’s a single executable that acts as a front-end for an internal library, which handles everything: compilation, syntax highlighting, dependency management, documentation generation, you name it. So all the language tooling should just work in a consistent way.

Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#76
post #70

I founded and co-own the google group Blind Dev Works. I have posted this Ask to it. It has at least a couple of blind developers on it and a stated purpose of improving programming tools for blind developers. You are welcome to join it. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/blind-dev-works (I am seriously visually impaired, but not blind. I know a little HTML and CSS and I have a part-time position with the spiffy…

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Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#77
As an aside, I've been working on accessibility on the side, as part of my work on sway[0]. My current goal is, as a sighted person, to be able to comfortably and productively use my computer for all of my normal tasks without any displays plugged in.

To this end I've been making plugins for Vim and WeeChat, and a script for sway:

https://github.com/SirCmpwn/vimspeak

https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/dotfiles/tree/master/.weechat/py...

https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/dotfiles/tree/master/bin/swaytal...

If you or someone you know would find these useful, please reach out so I can learn more about your needs.

[0] https://swaywm.org

Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#78

Accessibility is closely tied to portability. As a minimalist its not about what you can add but rather what you can take away and ensuring everybody understands reading the code with minimal effort everywhere. A more accessible and portable language is one that eliminates overloading and redundancy. Everything in the syntax and expression is deliberate and its not open to various subjective forms of reasoning. Elimi…

I don't understand what most of these points have to do with accessibility. Why would a blind person have more trouble with the fact that "x + y" might be addition or string concatenation than a sighted person? Why would compile-time type errors be more useful to a disabled person? And so on. It just feels like your opinions on a lot of language design holy wars where disabled people are just as likely to disagree with you as anyone else.

> Don't worry about superficial tooling support. Solve the language design problems, the hard problems first.

That's mostly what people have been doing for the last most-of-a-century, and it's led to a lot of software being much harder to use for disabled people.

Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#79

Lisp: - Avoids the use of gratuituous special characters: (a b c) - use-dashes-in-symbol-names-instead-of-underline-so-its-easier-to-type (you can still use underlines or most any special character, but we like to keep it simple and easy). - has a simple prefix syntax, that makes it easier to read and understand complex expressions: (loop (print (read (eval))) So no risk of confusing special characters or syntax: the…

Well it seems that OP needn’t bother as this problem is already solved. You wrote (loop (print (eval (read)))). How does that go with a screen reader? Like: Bracket loop bracket print bracket eval bracket read bracket bracket bracket bracket? The key thing I think is balancing and shifting parens. (loop (print (eval)) (read)) Is quite hard to sound different from (loop (print (eval (read)))) And more crucially what a…

The language in question already has a dataflow/pipeline style by default, so expressions are generally read from left to right like this, except for some standard syntactic sugar like infix operators and flow control blocks like “if” and “match”:

    read eval print loop

    stdin read
    some_environment eval
    pretty print
    loop

    [1, 2, 3] [4, 5, 6] \(+) zip_with
    do (each_index) -> i, x {
      if (x = 7) {
        "Lucky seven!" say
      } else {
        ["Value at index ", i show, " is ", x show]
          concat say
      }
    }

Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#80
I don't have any specific advice here but I can share that I one worked with a physics professor who is quadrupelegic and he is one of the fastest most productive programmers I have ever seen. He worked in C and C±+ mostly, and typed with a stick which he held in his mouth. Don't underestimate peoples' adaptability.
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