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Ask HN: Is working on online casinos unethical?

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Re: Ask HN: Is working on online casinos unethical?

#71

Post by thehardsphere »

dwaltrip wrote: post #69
thehardsphere wrote: post #57

I'm going to play devil's advocate here; I don't actually know what my own opinion about this is, and I never gamble online so I don't even know much about it or how horrible it might be. So I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions that should hopefully help you work out exactly how you got to your opinion and either change it or hold it more firmly. Why do you say "online casinos are designed in such a way to attra…

What's the proper way of differentiating between chemical addiction, experiential addiction, and neither?

I only raise chemical addiction as a possible exception because nearly everybody agrees there are ways to become addicted to certain chemicals without somehow choosing to do so first, e.g. you get hurt in an accident that is no fault of your own and the doctors administer medication to you that you become addicted to.

Re: Ask HN: Is working on online casinos unethical?

#72

Post by pmarreck »

> The amount of joy people get from gambling for fun is outweighed by the amount of grief gambling addiction causes.

Show me some empirical data backing this belief and you might have an actual argument.

Gambling (in moderation) is literally the only thing my parents have in common (other than mutual respect), and they've been together nearly 50 years.

I have definitely enjoyed my trips to Mohegan Sun, Atlantic City and Las Vegas, even if I've lost money on the trip.

The vast majority of people who gamble are not addicted to it and participate in moderation.

Re: Ask HN: Is working on online casinos unethical?

#73

Post by pmarreck »

falcolas wrote: post #65
driverdan wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming that money laundering is unethical.

Is there an argument in favor of it (money laundering) being ethical? The most I can think of is anonymity for the general public, but is this an actual use case?

Let's suppose it's 1775 and the American rebels want to fund an arguably-just fight against the ruling British.

Or let's suppose you run a VPN in China that allows the Chinese to arguably-justifiably access Western websites, and you need to launder your funds.

Or perhaps you're a spy inside ISIS and need to hide the fact that you're getting funded by the US.

Or perhaps you're in Iran and want to leave, but since Iran doesn't permit you to bring any money out of the country, you (arguably ethically and justifiably) decide to get it out via Bitcoins.

Being able to launder money is arguably very similar to being able to maintain privacy, which means it falls under Martin Fowler's excellent argument for privacy: https://www.martinfowler.com/articles/bothersome-privacy.htm...

I have never argued for money laundering in my life, but guys... you have to stop seeing everything in black-and-white.

Re: Ask HN: Is working on online casinos unethical?

#74

Post by [deleted] »

driverdan wrote: post #60
ainiriand wrote: post #3

Tl;dr - Yes. The first source of money for online casinos is not the money that the poor addict pours into it, it is the huge money laundering operations that are done in the back. Online casinos are not based in places that you will imagine particular transparent in terms of tax policy. They are based in Malta (russian money), Gibraltar (UK money) or in places like the Caiman Islands, Panama... A journalist was murd…

You're assuming that money laundering is unethical.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Is working on online casinos unethical?

#75

Post by pmarreck »

Apreche wrote: post #12

Yes. A casino exists only to take advantage of vulnerable individuals and drain them of their money. It is an immoral business. Therefore, working to help a casino is also immoral.

I'm sorry, but your appeal to morality is a fallacy, and thus a bullshit argument. I, and everyone I know who has gone to one, has enjoyed our trips to Vegas and Atlantic City. We've played moderately, and see it as entertainment. Now, if you have evidence/empirical data that shows that gambling causes more misery than joy, by all means, present it!

Alcohol is not bad because some small percentage of people get addicted. Neither is online gaming, neither is sex, neither is marijuana, neither is gambling.

Now, nicotine... THERE you might have an argument. But even that is fraught with difficulty: http://discovermagazine.com/2014/march/13-nicotine-fix

Re: Ask HN: Is working on online casinos unethical?

#76

Post by pmarreck »

pikiejoe wrote: post #10

I know friends that work in online gambling, they say they are more ashamed of people who work in banking, hft, defense (offense?) contractors, Facebook or Google. Why? Because all the above have tangible negative effects on society. We need an engineering code of conduct - too many tech folk happy to take a dollar in return for building stuff that makes the world a worse place.

> Because all the above have tangible negative effects on society.

Let's see your evidence for this. Otherwise, bullshit.

> We need an engineering code of conduct

No. What we need is a no-bullshit code of conduct- All actions should be based on evidence, instead of belief. Engineering included. That would solve this, and many many many other problems occurring now.

Re: Ask HN: Is working on online casinos unethical?

#77

Post by falcolas »

pmarreck wrote: post #73
falcolas wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there an argument in favor of it (money laundering) being ethical? The most I can think of is anonymity for the general public, but is this an actual use case?

Let's suppose it's 1775 and the American rebels want to fund an arguably-just fight against the ruling British. Or let's suppose you run a VPN in China that allows the Chinese to arguably-justifiably access Western websites, and you need to launder your funds. Or perhaps you're a spy inside ISIS and need to hide the fact that you're getting funded by the US. Or perhaps you're in Iran and want to leave, but since Iran…

So, general anonymity, as I mentioned above. My (admittedly only implied) question around this usecase is: is it a real usecase, or purely theoretical?

Re: Ask HN: Is working on online casinos unethical?

#78

Post by gnode »

Weighing the harm of loss against the benefit of entertainment is one way to decide. An alternative viewpoint is whether the freedom to gamble is more or less important than protecting the irresponsible.

You may also want to consider that your non-participation in an activity may not affect whether it happens or not. Arguably, there will always be a provider of gambling services where it is legal (and maybe even where it isn't). From this perspective, the most ethical choice may be to be to provide the most ethical gambling service. However, this may be commercially challenging.

Ultimately, only you can decide whether this is ethical, as ethics is subjective.

Re: Ask HN: Is working on online casinos unethical?

#79

Post by jonnycomputer »

Clubber wrote: post #42
ademup wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because an endeavor is legal, does not make it ethical. I agree with parent: working for a casino is about as unethical as working for a tobacco company. Your work will unquestionably lead to harm in the lives of others.

Yes, but that applies to just about every programming job too. Is programming unethical? I mean your are automating jobs away. It certainly harms lives.

By that measure taking a job is unethical because it takes away a job that another might perform...

Yes, working for an industry that does harm to people is unethical. However, the censure that is deserved is proportional to the the "status" of the position they occupy in the industry, e.g. CEOs > Professionals > Blue Collar > Part Timers. Its not just the influence the different people have on the industries or companies they work in, its also a function of their autonomy. A lot of people have little choice but to take whatever job they can get, because they have other obligations as well: to their selves, to their families, and to their communities.

Re: Ask HN: Is working on online casinos unethical?

#80

Post by jonnycomputer »

ademup wrote: post #21
hapless wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tobacco industry is made up of wholly legal and aboveboard business enterprises with many happy users. They have a long history of malicious behavior, but it is not, on the face of it, wrong to take such a job. But I still might avoid it, myself. Once bitten, twice shy. You spend fifty years conspiring to conceal damages to your own customers and maybe I prefer not to work for you even after you stop doing it

Just because an endeavor is legal, does not make it ethical. I agree with parent: working for a casino is about as unethical as working for a tobacco company. Your work will unquestionably lead to harm in the lives of others.

Also, at some point you are going to be asked to do something you know is effed up.
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