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Ask HN: Is Ruby on Rails still worth it?

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Re: Ask HN: Is Ruby on Rails still worth it?

#71

Post by sb8244 »

mmartinson wrote: post #48
sb8244 wrote: post #12

Yes, Rails helps developers make good upfront choices to the structuring of their application and database. The DB layer and structure is going to be a bottleneck well before the programming framework is (I think this is true in any framework). I enjoy that Rails makes it easy to do things like take care of N+1 queries, do associations correctly, etc. That isn't exclusive to Rails, but it is really good in Rails.

I think Rails helps developers make ok choices to the structuring of their application, particular if it's serving a domain that models easily into a fairly conventional RESTish-API relational data structure. The strongly-held conventions (in both framework and community) that position it so well for upfront productivity don't leave a ton of space for taking a proactive approach to managing complexity in a trickier d…

A tool in the hands of an expert will be used differently than a non expert. The model layer that AR suggests might not be good for an expert, but it will certainly help a non expert build their app for some time without too severe of issues.

You are right that it's far from perfect and it really is a "be everything" ORM.

Re: Ask HN: Is Ruby on Rails still worth it?

#72

Post by stevebmark »

mrgordon wrote: post #64
stevebmark wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately I would say Javascript. Unlike Ruby, you will learn about compilers, static analysis, linting (eslint is more useful than rubocop), type systems, function composition, and have a good alternative to OO based programing built into the language (as opposed to your `UnboundMethod` lambda block proc whateverthehell design flaw Ruby has now). Javascript also gives you decent jumping off points into languages…

Many of the popular web frameworks like Django and Elixir have a lot in common with Rails with regards to typing and compilation or lack thereof. Function composition and partial function application is totally supported in Ruby so not sure what your complaint is there. Here is one rather forced example: http://genua.github.io/ruby/2015/03/17/ruby-function-composi... I don’t know anything about Elm and Purescript but…

    pp_proc = self.method("pretty_print_me").to_proc
Exactly :(

Re: Ask HN: Is Ruby on Rails still worth it?

#73

Post by Shicholas »

anko wrote: post #65
Shicholas wrote: post #35

No. Long time rails developer, but if you can green-light a project I'd highly recommend node all the way. I've found it much easier to comprehend a pure javascript stack (or even better an all-Typescript stack) due to substantially less cognitive overhead, find other people to work with (very important as your project scales), and the fact I can deploy node with a serverless implementation on Azure, GCP, and AWS mak…

It seems like you're comparing a framework with a language? What framework do you use on node.js? My experience with nodejs has been pretty poor. I'll give some examples; * The language and runtime is constantly updating - there is no such thing as stability * Even npm couldn't produce deterministic installs until this year * npm dependency hell * there are lots of ways to do any task, so there is much fragmentation…

GraphQL and Express (wrapped with AWS Lambda's express handler for deploys)

To answer your points:

* You're right it hasn't been - but it is now with LTS releases of Node.

* I agree, this is why I use yarn.

* Yarn has solved any dependency issues I've witnessed.

* While this is true, every solution boils down to simple objects or simple functions. New solutions tend to be simpler than the status quo (e.g. redux)

* While debugging isn't as easy - all my back-end code boils down to simple functions which just need a simple test (I use mocha which is a lot like RSpec). Also Typescript and TSLint enforce types and code styling so I don't really need the pry-style debugging.

* The only configuration I feel you need is Typescript and TSLint which will enforce a very specific way of styling code, file naming conventions and so much more. From there my individual functions representing GraphQL mutations and queries on the back-end or React components on the front-end are small, modular, and encapsulated in a folder to make for an easy `cp -vr`.

* You're only talking about web. React Native/VR are extremely compelling reasons to expand beyond just the browser. Plus I feel separation of front/back-end makes for faster product development on bigger teams.

* Haha yes, though ES2015 made it a lot better and Typescript has made it complete IMO. Microsoft and Google have both made substantial investments into the language, with the former making it as big of a center-point as C#. That's saying something. You can code Typescript code on a cheaper and faster Windows machine, ruby? much more difficult.

Re: Ask HN: Is Ruby on Rails still worth it?

#74

Post by Shicholas »

wgjordan wrote: post #63
Shicholas wrote: post #35

No. Long time rails developer, but if you can green-light a project I'd highly recommend node all the way. I've found it much easier to comprehend a pure javascript stack (or even better an all-Typescript stack) due to substantially less cognitive overhead, find other people to work with (very important as your project scales), and the fact I can deploy node with a serverless implementation on Azure, GCP, and AWS mak…

> Finally, when it comes to interface development, nothing in rails will get you as far as React these days Rails's out-of-the-box React integration [1] should get you _exactly_ as far as React these days. [1] https://github.com/rails/webpacker#react

While this is interesting, you're proposing a monolithic repo with two predominant languages. I think it's much harder to get the benefits of riding the NPM wave while the front-end is stuck in a rails project such as using Typescript, React Native, etc. These are all possible of course, but there's a Rails Webpacker library that's an extra intermediary between the author and their JS code.

Re: Ask HN: Is Ruby on Rails still worth it?

#75

Post by jeffnappi »

actsasbuffoon wrote: post #70
gkya wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Django. I'm not doing software these days but still following the news etc., and it seems to me that the general knowledge of the tool is still operable since very early releases. I'm not very familiar with Rails itself but when an environment changes very quickly it's both a big distraction and a great inconvenience. I've last worked with django around January 2014, today when I look at a Django app it's the same be…

The upgrades have progressively become much less painful. Rails 1 to 2 was a big deal, as the change introduced the RESTful API. Rails 3 was slightly less violent, but the asset pipeline was still a pretty big deal. Rails 4 had a lot of API cleanup/simplification. A lot of meta programming magic was removed in favor of simpler code, which resulted in some rewriting of existing code. Rails 5 was the easiest upgrade ye…

This has been my experience. I've been working on a large Rails project that started on Rails 4 beta in ~2014. Since then it's been incredibly stable and the upgrade paths have been quite simple from 4.0 to 4.1, then 4.2 and now we're on 5.0 with a few minor updates left before moving to 5.1.

Everything would have worked fine if we didn't keep things up to date, but just about everything in the software world needs to be continuously updated due to security updates/patches, etc.

Re: Ask HN: Is Ruby on Rails still worth it?

#76

Post by mrgordon »

stevebmark wrote: post #72
mrgordon wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the popular web frameworks like Django and Elixir have a lot in common with Rails with regards to typing and compilation or lack thereof. Function composition and partial function application is totally supported in Ruby so not sure what your complaint is there. Here is one rather forced example: http://genua.github.io/ruby/2015/03/17/ruby-function-composi... I don’t know anything about Elm and Purescript but…

pp_proc = self.method("pretty_print_me").to_proc Exactly :(

I did say it was a forced example ;)

Even assuming you implemented it their way, their code isn't very concise. In the snippet you pasted, "self.method" could be replaced with "method" for example without changing anything

Re: Ask HN: Is Ruby on Rails still worth it?

#77

Post by eximius »

danmaz74 wrote: post #61
eximius wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not migrate to python, migration away from Rails. I'm suggesting Python as an alternative to Rails to start with.

You still didn't answer why would I want to migrate away from Rails. Python has no advantage I can think of (unless one has to work with data analysis).

My experience is admittedly tainted because we migrated away from a Rails codebase and it was not fun. The Rails code was extremely convoluted and encourages metaprogramming in a way that is very un-typed.

Basically, I think Rails is inferior because it encourages bad practices, has no distinct advantages over Python, Python seems to have a larger talent pool, and Python has uses outside of Rails that make it a better choice for a one-language shop (i.e., your tools can be in the same language as your code and can utilize that + Python is everywhere, Ruby has extra devops costs incurred).

I won't say you can't be successful with Ruby. That'd be silly. But do I think there is a reason to choose Rails over Python if you can start fresh? Nope.

Re: Ask HN: Is Ruby on Rails still worth it?

#78

Post by cutler »

ComputerGuru wrote: post #37
danmaz74 wrote: post #22

I've yet to find anything that comes close to Rails in programmer productivity for the web. So, as long as programmer productivity is a concern, it's relevant. EDIT: On the other hand, I wouldn't choose Rails for a project where the main concern is performance/scalability

Try ASP.NET. It’s managed to take learn most of the lessons (what to avoid and what to replicate) from RoR and is built around a better language (C# or others of your choice) and environment (Visual Studio and MSDN) to boot. Now that .NET with .NET Core is officially a first-class citizen on Linux, there really no good reason not to embrace it.

Except that Visual Studio 2017 is a dog, especially on Windows 10.

Re: Ask HN: Is Ruby on Rails still worth it?

#79

Post by cutler »

mmartinson wrote: post #49
kapauldo wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you suggest if you don't know rails?

I would suggest Elixir/Phoenix if your priority is maintaining and scaling a business application. I would offer that suggestion with caution, though, if you're considering building a core skill set for employability today. A small contingent of the experienced Ruby community have become fervent Elixir evangelists, but the number of successful projects, jobs and skilled candidates is a miniscule fraction of Ruby and…

Yes, here in London Elixir jobs are still very thin on the ground. I don't see Elixir moving beyond its current position in the job market. It has everything - great concurrency, Phoenix - except mindshare and adoption. In another era, with less competition I would have bet on Elixir but not today.

Re: Ask HN: Is Ruby on Rails still worth it?

#80

Post by jeffnappi »

foodstances wrote: post #36
1as wrote: post #16

Yes. Rails has by now certainly crossed into boring software territory – arguably a [positive thing]( http://mcfunley.com/choose-boring-technology ) anyway – but it remains an excellent choice coming into 2018: - Out of the box, Rails has close to unbeatable developer ergonomics, tooling, stability, and ease of use - Lots of high quality, large companies use it (GitHub, Shopify, Airbnb, Square, Twitch) and have by no…

Boring yet still very volatile. I wonder if or when Rails will settle down and stop changing everything between major releases causing all documentation to be out of date, gems to break, developer habits to break, etc. Not to mention all of the related tooling like Bundler which seems to spit out new and uninteresting warnings and errors every time I update it. It would be great to be able to write an application usi…

We just recently upgraded our large Rails app from Rails 5.0 to Rails 5.1. I wanted to come back to this discussion because I'm actually astonished how easy it was to upgrade. Our project has 1,156 Ruby files consisting of 55,396 lines of actual code (per cloc, rspec and app code). Want to guess how many lines had to be updated to upgrade to Rails 5.1? 24 or 0.04%.

Rails is quite stable.

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