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Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

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Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#71

(Speaking as a FreeBSDer here -- I'll let NetBSD and OpenBSD folks cover those, since I don't follow them closely enough to offer accurate comments.) 1. We don't let licenses get in the way of making good technical decisions. This means that, for example, we had no problem with importing DTrace and ZFS. 2. We have more of an emphasis on doing things right. This often means that it takes longer before we acquire new f…

FWIW, and I realize not everyone likes it, but Gentoo goes a long way towards making Linux package management more like BSD ports (AFAICT; haven't used *BSD much). I really like that Gentoo encourages me to build my own (lean) kernel and allows me to pick what configure flags each package gets (instead of giving me packages that include everything out there, like in the .deb distributions).

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#72
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Taking more time to develop features correctly] just sounds like it takes longer for stuff to be released This attitude demonstrates a pretty significant lack of experience.

I don't know, it's not like Linux just lets things in after a week of testing. I understand the need to do things right, but I also understand the natural tendency in developers toward perfectionism. You have to strike a balance -- in some cases Linux may be closer than BSD or vice-versa, but the real thing is that the open-source philosophy of release early, release often is better embodied by something active like…

Well, not really. While the official releases are quite conservative you can follow CURRENT, which is (as the name suggests) the current development tree. It is all out in the open and if you want something which has not been officially released you can get yourself a copy of the source tree, build yourself a new world ("make world") and you have a current FreeBSD (I cannot speak for the other BSD variants here, but I think the process is similar) with all warts and all the new shiny developments. Oh - and all the bugs.

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#73

(Speaking as a FreeBSDer here -- I'll let NetBSD and OpenBSD folks cover those, since I don't follow them closely enough to offer accurate comments.) 1. We don't let licenses get in the way of making good technical decisions. This means that, for example, we had no problem with importing DTrace and ZFS. 2. We have more of an emphasis on doing things right. This often means that it takes longer before we acquire new f…

Most of that applies to OpenBSD as well, except we did let licenses stand in the way of importing DTrace and ZFS.

And the Plan9 compilers, the OpenSD team wanted to lose GCC and were considering the plan9 toolchain.

Turning Plan 9 from open source into Free had plenty of teething troubles, getting the lawyers from Bell-Labs then Lucent then Lucent-Alcatel into the idea took years. Originally Plan 9 was paid for software with full source included. Then from v.3 it was a free download but with its own license which included a "if you make modifications you must send your changes back to Lucent".

Then it was lobbied for change and to comply with US munitions law Lucent included the export restrictions proviso OpenBSD's Theo so eloquently argues against :

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.plan9/browse_thread/t...

Ironically the compiler suite became available under GPL / MIT via Vita-Nuova who bought the rights to Inferno.

Licensing helped keep Plan9 away from developers at exactly the same time GNU/Linux and OSS exploded on to the scene in much the same way early adopters got interested in GNU/Linux it during the BSD / AT&T lawsuit.

How our computing landscape would be different if we all valued freedom.

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#74
post #58

I have been an OpenBSD and FreeBSD user, as well as minor contributor, since the mid-90s. All the answers here are good, and I would like to add: * FreeBSD is on the cutting edge of performance. Because it is a total OS (as opposed to just a kernel), performance improvements are made and integrated into the binary packages and ports build options of common packages. FreeBSD was one of the first operating systems to i…

Thanks a lot for sharing so accurately. Now all I want to so is get rid of my ArchLinux and give FreeBSD a shot :).

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#75
post #58

I have been an OpenBSD and FreeBSD user, as well as minor contributor, since the mid-90s. All the answers here are good, and I would like to add: * FreeBSD is on the cutting edge of performance. Because it is a total OS (as opposed to just a kernel), performance improvements are made and integrated into the binary packages and ports build options of common packages. FreeBSD was one of the first operating systems to i…

A reasonable summary, but one that demonstrates some misunderstandings of the Linux world. To deal with the issues point by point:

* FreeBSD has better performance than Linux? This is, as you almost concede, no longer true.

* Lack of kernel modules an advantage? Hardly. Linux loadable kernel modules produce no extra performance overhead, but make life a lot simpler for everyone. The only extra 'bloat' is having ~100MB of drivers of which you probably only need 10% or so. If this an issue for you (ie, you're running an embedded system) you can of course cut down the modules to only those required, or even compile into the kernel just as with FreeBSD.

* The GCC compiler and toolchain aren't optimal, and I fully expect a major Linux distribution to switch to Clang/LLVM in the not too distant future. If this is a success (and I expect it to be), I wouldn't be at all surprised to see most/all Linux distros switch. This isn't a Linux vs FreeBSD issue, this is GCC vs Clang/LLVM - a battle I believe Clang/LLVM will win.

* As far as I'm aware TrustedBSD offers no more features than SELinux, and the Linux ACL system, but maybe I'm showing my lack of BSD knowledge here.

* Xen and VMWare virtualization is there but not 100% in FreeBSD. They're rock solid on Linux, which also has KVM, a very viable alternative to the two.

* The development branch/stable kernel approach is irrelevant - people don't use Linux, they use a Linux distribution (OK, OK, a GNU/Linux disitribution :)). In most distributions point releases are binary and API compatible with .0 releases (RHEL 5.5 binaries are guaranteed to run on RHEL 5.0).

In conclusion, is FreeBSD good? Undoubtedly. Is it better than Linux? It's hard to make a case for that. It has less device support, less software support and a massively smaller user base.

FreeBSD is nice to tinker with, but it doesn't offer enough benefits to justify putting production software on it. It's great to learn about the old school UNIX way of doing things, but that's not what I want to be doing on a live server.

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#76
post #14

I used FreeBSD and OpenBSD for a while, and what drove me back to GNU/Linux was package management. OpenBSD was OK at it even if it had a limited selection, but I never had much luck with FreeBSD ports. Having a nice, stable base system wasn't very useful when ports were always being updated to the latest version; if I wanted a security fix, I had to take all the feature changes and new bugs, too. I tried a bunch of…

At my former employer, we had the same experience. Upgrading or installing a new package was always a pain and required you to jump through hoops while tracking down all necessary upgrades. And then it still broke. Switched to Debian, never looked back.

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#77
My main reason for no longer running FreeBSD (which we used for quite a few years) is that since I've switched my desktop environment to Linux I got caught time and again by small differences between the servers running FreeBSD and my dev box. So I switched everything over to Debian or debian derived distros. Ubuntu notebook remix for the laptop, Kubuntu for the desktop and straight debian on the servers.

Other than that, my experience with FreeBSD is that it was absolutely rock solid and bullet proof, uptimes of many years with machines pumping out data at a pretty decent clip for the time we're talking about.

*BSD is not always as fast with supporting the latest hardware or adding a new feature or technology but what's done stays done. Linux tends to yoyo for a bit before settling.

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#78

If you are using an Apple Mac, then you are using BSD (with bits of Mach and a sprinkling of Apple fairy dust) ! I'm over simplifying, but with Linux or BSD it's really only about the kernel. They both use the same collection of GNU tools and open sourced programs like FireFox, Python, etc. Package management is more a distro issue, than a Linux vs. BSD issue. If you want to customize your kernel for a specific serve…

The apple statement is not true:

http://events.ccc.de/congress/2007/Fahrplan/events/2303.en.h... http://vimeo.com/6955695

Re: Ask HN: I'm a Linux guy. Tell me about all those BSDs

#80
post #58

I have been an OpenBSD and FreeBSD user, as well as minor contributor, since the mid-90s. All the answers here are good, and I would like to add: * FreeBSD is on the cutting edge of performance. Because it is a total OS (as opposed to just a kernel), performance improvements are made and integrated into the binary packages and ports build options of common packages. FreeBSD was one of the first operating systems to i…

A reasonable summary, but one that demonstrates some misunderstandings of the Linux world. To deal with the issues point by point: * FreeBSD has better performance than Linux? This is, as you almost concede, no longer true. * Lack of kernel modules an advantage? Hardly. Linux loadable kernel modules produce no extra performance overhead, but make life a lot simpler for everyone. The only extra 'bloat' is having ~100M…

>The GCC compiler and toolchain aren't optimal, and I fully expect a major Linux distribution to switch to Clang/LLVM in the not too distant future.

Have you looked through the Linux kernel code? There is a lot of gcc specific stuff in there. I don't think the Clang change will be as fast as you think.

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