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Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

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Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

#71

Post by jpindar »

diafygi wrote: post #10

Do what they do for all other engineering fields: require a certified engineer sign off on a product delivered to a regulated entity, and be able to hold that engineer criminally liable if someone comes to harm from the product they signed off on. The quality of software for lolzcat apps could remain shitty, but the quality of firmware for FCC approval would go way up. In order for quality to increase for infrastruct…

That is NOT what they do for all other engineering fields. PEs are required for civil engineering, but not for many other types such as electronics and much of mechanical engineering.

Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

#72

Post by walshemj »

vostok wrote: post #14
walshemj wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case why is Jeff Sessions still a lawyer? any reasonable system would have debared him by now.

It is my understanding that the Alabama bar is not very quick to disbar attorneys. It is also my understanding that no court has ruled that Sessions perjured himself.

Being disbarred by your peers from being a judge for racism should have been the end of Mr Sessions legal career - bringing the profession in to disrepute

Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

#73

Post by rafiki6 »

tdb7893 wrote: post #60
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A professional certificate is not a quality grading tool, it's a pricing mechanism. Is it? At one time, physicians, too, were not all that keen on the idea of licensing. " David A. Johnson and Humayun J. Chaudhry's surprisingly engaging Medical Licensing and Discipline in America: A History of the Federation of State Medical Boards was published to commemorate the centennial celebration of the Federation of State M…

I think licenses makes sense for doctors because they are working on people, their solution is generally specific to one person, and a mistake that they make can have dire consequences. Software engineering can also have large consequences but in those cases it's probably significantly more effective to test the actual product than test the engineers.

Not sure how your value analysis differs. Clearly "test the product" isn't good enough with empirical evidence. Otherwise we wouldn't have large security and data breaches that result in money and productivity loss.

Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

#74

Post by rafiki6 »

The first thing you'd need to setup is a lobby to make it mandatory to have it be legally required to have a licensed software engineer sign off on code going into a production system. Generally the rest of the engineering professions have this requirement. You must legally have a licensed engineer sign off on the drawings for a bridge for example.

Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

#75

Post by rafiki6 »

quanticle wrote: post #11
diafygi wrote: post #10

Do what they do for all other engineering fields: require a certified engineer sign off on a product delivered to a regulated entity, and be able to hold that engineer criminally liable if someone comes to harm from the product they signed off on. The quality of software for lolzcat apps could remain shitty, but the quality of firmware for FCC approval would go way up. In order for quality to increase for infrastruct…

Do what they do for all other engineering fields: require a certified engineer sign off on a product delivered to a regulated entity, and be able to hold that engineer criminally liable if someone comes to harm from the product they signed off on. Right, but that's not what OP asked. OP is already assuming that we're in a situation where we recognize the need for certification for software engineers. Let's say, for e…

Same way every other engineering profession did it. Grandfathering + an initial ramp up period.

Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

#76

Post by rafiki6 »

antaviana wrote: post #21
diafygi wrote: post #10

Do what they do for all other engineering fields: require a certified engineer sign off on a product delivered to a regulated entity, and be able to hold that engineer criminally liable if someone comes to harm from the product they signed off on. The quality of software for lolzcat apps could remain shitty, but the quality of firmware for FCC approval would go way up. In order for quality to increase for infrastruct…

That's an excellent way for software to be 100x more expensive and controlled by a cartel of incumbents. We could also send to jail those users who don't RTFM.

The cost of developing the software should include the inherent risk it poses if it fails.

Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

#77

Post by tdb7893 »

rafiki6 wrote: post #73
tdb7893 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think licenses makes sense for doctors because they are working on people, their solution is generally specific to one person, and a mistake that they make can have dire consequences. Software engineering can also have large consequences but in those cases it's probably significantly more effective to test the actual product than test the engineers.

Not sure how your value analysis differs. Clearly "test the product" isn't good enough with empirical evidence. Otherwise we wouldn't have large security and data breaches that result in money and productivity loss.

I'm talking about regulation and those failures don't seem to be regulatory failures. I guess you could try to regulate to stop having data beaches but I think it would be too broad and largely ineffective anyway but in the case you regulated essentially every web app then a license might be more efficient than actually testing everything. I was thinking more along the lines of things that could cause physical harm (e.g. medical devices) where it makes a bunch more sense to test the device than test the engineers

Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

#78

Post by jpindar »

rafiki6 wrote: post #74

The first thing you'd need to setup is a lobby to make it mandatory to have it be legally required to have a licensed software engineer sign off on code going into a production system. Generally the rest of the engineering professions have this requirement. You must legally have a licensed engineer sign off on the drawings for a bridge for example.

The rest of the engineering professions != designing bridges.
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