Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is this still true nowadays with almost entirely automated manufacturing? If you look at modern car models, even the cheapest ones have way more "shapes at odd angles" than sports cars.
Nowhere near as much of automotive manufacturing is as automated as people think. Fitting panels etc is often a robot assisted job but not 100% machine. During production trials for new cars ALOT of time is spent trying to get the panels to fit together correctly, even getting the doors to seal correctly and be water proof isn't a given to begin with.
Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?
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Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is this still true nowadays with almost entirely automated manufacturing? If you look at modern car models, even the cheapest ones have way more "shapes at odd angles" than sports cars.
Nowhere near as much of automotive manufacturing is as automated as people think. Fitting panels etc is often a robot assisted job but not 100% machine. During production trials for new cars ALOT of time is spent trying to get the panels to fit together correctly, even getting the doors to seal correctly and be water proof isn't a given to begin with.
Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?
#73As other answers have essentially already said- because Ferrari is a brand, and past a certain price point brand names often matter more than the physical object. Its the same in cars as in designer handbags. The opposite question is equally interesting; why doesn't Ferrari produce a relatively cheap car, so that they can offer the Ferrari cachet to a broader market? Presumably as to not dilute their brand. But it me…
Under Ford ownership, Jaguar did the same thing with the X-Type, and in my opinion, started the decline of the brand. The X-Type was [apparently] designed to allow them to cater to a mid-market customer, but they produced an objectively inferior car with a little bit of Jaguar look, but the fit and finish of a slightly-nicer Ford. I drove one after having owned other Jaguars and the cheap switchgear, loud engine, exc…
Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?
#74As other answers have essentially already said- because Ferrari is a brand, and past a certain price point brand names often matter more than the physical object. Its the same in cars as in designer handbags. The opposite question is equally interesting; why doesn't Ferrari produce a relatively cheap car, so that they can offer the Ferrari cachet to a broader market? Presumably as to not dilute their brand. But it me…
Its the same in cars as in designer handbags. But for basically any given designer handbag I can find dozens of bags at a fraction of the price which are largely indistinguishable from the original if you're standing across the street.
Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?
#75Really good question! Costlier cars need to stand out from the ordinary. And to stand out designers come up with fancy curves, shapes etc. From a manufacturing point of view these 'non standard' items result in more cost which the mid-range cars cant afford. For example there is more wastage in cutting a curvy door from the sheet metal as compared to a standard rectangle shaped one. It is interesting to note that as…
> It is interesting to note that as time goes by, what was fancy once eventually becomes 'standard' and the features get into the mid-range priced cars as well. Auto-shift is probably a good example. Automatic rear trunk opener is another and so on. Is that because the high-end carmakers invest R&D in reducing costs of making these fancy door panels, which trickles down into mid/low-end cars? (I've heard similar thin…
So initially supplier 'A' may create a non-standard item for a new niche car. Eventually they make it available for other cars too. As more and more manufacturers pick up the 'new item' for their cars, the cost of manufacturing starts coming down as economy of scale kicks in.
The above is just one example, my point is that non-standard items cost high to manufacture, and as others start to improvise/ replicate the cost starts to come down.
Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?
#76Really good question! Costlier cars need to stand out from the ordinary. And to stand out designers come up with fancy curves, shapes etc. From a manufacturing point of view these 'non standard' items result in more cost which the mid-range cars cant afford. For example there is more wastage in cutting a curvy door from the sheet metal as compared to a standard rectangle shaped one. It is interesting to note that as…
> It is interesting to note that as time goes by, what was fancy once eventually becomes 'standard' and the features get into the mid-range priced cars as well. Auto-shift is probably a good example. Automatic rear trunk opener is another and so on. Is that because the high-end carmakers invest R&D in reducing costs of making these fancy door panels, which trickles down into mid/low-end cars? (I've heard similar thin…
A lot of high-end carmakers these days are owned by big car-manufacturer conglomerates. For example, Volkswagen owns Lamborghini, Bugatti, Bentley, Audi, and Porsche; Chrysler owns Maserati and owned Ferrari until a couple years ago; Ford owned Jaguar and Aston Martin in the 90s and 00s. So the trickle-down is really very direct: From the luxury makes of a conglomerate into the consumer makes.
Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?
#77Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?
#78Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?
#79I've summed up (hopefully correctly) some of the most compelling arguments here and tried to bring counter arguments. Which I'll elaborate below the list.
• Tolerances can be solved by optimization (CAD + Solver / +EA-Algorithm / +ML) @giarc
• Goal Oriented Design and Years of Experience don't hinder a great looking body and frame @heavymark @markbnj
• Outer body and frame have no such limiting influence on the interior design @dagw
• 3rd party party reliance is a thing, but you could overcome most of these price drags by using alternatives, 3d printing or self-fabrication @byoung2 anyway that's a good argument @DeBraid I agree, but altough it answers the question it doesn't feel satifying for our curiousity
• Yes, the industry's car design tools don't help with parameter complexity @garyfirestorm you are right there, sir. We need better integrated tooling and part optimizers/solvers.
• Status and Image is important, thus such gravitas have some, but it's not the deal-breaking argument @tyingq You can do it like Asus and create Apple'esque hardware at the fraction of a cost and thrive due to the price gap.
• "Because it's dishonest. You also get all the discomfort and impracticality of a supercar with none of the benefits. You just project some status until people discover what car you're actually driving." @gaze I don't understand what you mean here to be honest, can you elaborate?
Arguing with tolerances just means that the design process isn't automated or not integrated into the production process properly. Otherwisee there would be a user friendly solver and optimization tool for CAD that uses Evolutionary-Algorithms, a Contraint-Solver and/or Machine-Learning.
Simply put you can use an existing battle tested car and just change the body with a supercar alike one. This usually means also you have better and not worse aerodynamics (given that you don't blindly ignore aerodynamics just for a better looks).
And who (in his right mind) drives 300Km/h at all on American Streets? That's just unneccsary and arriving 1-5min earlier is no compelling reason for driving at such risky speeds. It's not even allowed from what I know, except in Germany (where I live), but even here we don't usually go significantly over 220Km/h for short periods of time. Thus a big enging and huge horsepower isn't even the selling point of a SuperCar per se, but it's looks and exclusivity.
Tl;Dr Answer: One conclusion I derive is that the Car Design Process and Car Production Process, altough almost fully automated, are really not well integrated and appear to lack essential, albeit usually complex to use tools like Machine-Learning/EAs and Contraint-Solvers. The Industry needs a change urgently in this area, but it's already been explored from what I know :)
Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?
#80Really good question! Costlier cars need to stand out from the ordinary. And to stand out designers come up with fancy curves, shapes etc. From a manufacturing point of view these 'non standard' items result in more cost which the mid-range cars cant afford. For example there is more wastage in cutting a curvy door from the sheet metal as compared to a standard rectangle shaped one. It is interesting to note that as…