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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#691

Post by pietrovismara »

tananaev wrote: post #201
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

What happens when the government doesn't have enough money to pay for retirement anymore? The system works well when you have growing workforce and productivity. It doesn't work with growing number of retirees and shrinking active workforce.

What happens if society collapses? If a giant asteroid hits earth? If we find out aliens and they are ostile?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#692

Post by overscore »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #677
overscore wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ireland does not have low taxes for individuals compared to continental Europe. Even compared to Sweden, personal taxation is comparable for high-earners, although Ireland's much more progressive and redistributive scheme results in lower taxes for low-earners, and thus a smaller tax base.

Hmm, it's anecdotal, but my colleagues who moved from Ireland and UK to Austria say that back there it was basically a tax heaven for tech workers compared to the income taxes they pay here so... maybe you could be wrong?

> maybe you could be wrong?

Ireland is bang on the EU average for taxation of high earners. It seems Austria has higher (although not massively so) taxation of high earners - source below.

Ireland has the most progressive taxation system in the EU, so low-earners do indeed pay less personal incomes taxes than any country other than Cyprus and Estonia.

Ireland is definitely not a tax haven for tech workers - you're the only person I've ever come across to hold that opinion. The UK may be closer to that, as self-employment is much more attractively taxed there than Ireland.

https://www.uhy.com/uk-imposes-highest-taxes-on-inheritance-...

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#693

Post by tiborsaas »

sajithdilshan wrote: post #668
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

> I got here by taking no risk at all. This is the most European thing I've ever heard. Most people would not like to take risks and would not even think about stepping outside of their comfort zone. Personally, I think this is the reason why there are less startups in Europe compared to US. No one would like to take a risk unless it's absolutely necessary. > I have worked 20 years in the same job and so have my coll…

I'm in the EU, took more risks than most people I know, step out my comfort zone also multiple times. What most people miss is not the willingness, but the safety net.

Results? Unimpressive, fails over fails.

I know value the steady job I have and I keep tearing myself for not opting for this sooner. I don't know if I would be already burnt out if I haven't tried, but timing wasn't great, that's for sure.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#694

Post by ginko »

jtwaleson wrote: post #410
dnpp123 wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's really low, even for poorer European countries He said net salary. I know a lot of engineers from C schools in mid-size towns in France who are paid less than 2k euro net.

France is really terrible in terms of SWE compensation. I think I know why. I've had some traineeship / internship requests from French students and their mentality seems so much more like "engineering" career trajectory than "hacker". Engineer: "yes, of course it is normal to be a trainee for 2 years, then a junior for 5, then a medior for 5 and of I'm really good I'll be a senior. I would be really thankful if you…

I'd rather work with the 'engineer' than the 'hacker'.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#695

Post by nicoburns »

beagle3 wrote: post #496
georgeplusplus wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is slightly misleading. The federal tax rate is a tiered system, meaning a portion of your income is taxed at a certain rate and income that exceeds that tier is taxed at a different rate after that and so on. The federal tax rate is much lower if you account for that.

Op did say “marginal rate”

Yes, but you'd be amazed at how many people don't understand what that means. No doubt it's not true on HN, but a lot of people among the general public seem to be under the impression that the effective rate jumps at thresholds.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#696

Post by pastacacioepepe »

xwdv wrote: post #278
pavlov wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a European living in USA working for a FAANG. Frankly, my assessment is exactly the opposite from yours. United States is the country that's most likely to go to shit. All of us wealthy professionals here are sitting on a powder keg of inequality and delusional politics, and nobody will be decoupled from it when it blows up. I plan to stay for a few more years, then return to my safe North European home country w…

Inequality doesn’t really matter as much as people think. What inequality does is ensure that there will always be two markets of consumers: one that needs goods at low prices and one that can afford higher prices for luxury goods. As long as the lower price market exists, hoarding sufficient wealth guarantees you’ll be able to at least afford the minimum standard of living, allowing you to safely retire. If everyone…

Yes, thank you for telling us that capitalism needs poverty to exist.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#697

Post by kome »

sajithdilshan wrote: post #668
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

> I got here by taking no risk at all. This is the most European thing I've ever heard. Most people would not like to take risks and would not even think about stepping outside of their comfort zone. Personally, I think this is the reason why there are less startups in Europe compared to US. No one would like to take a risk unless it's absolutely necessary. > I have worked 20 years in the same job and so have my coll…

> Changing your job is part of your career growth in-order to expose yourself to new challenges, problems and new environments.

A lot of people prefer work to live, while others prefer live to work. Both strategies are perfectly fine.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#698

Post by brianmcc »

agilob wrote: post #585

Europe doesn't have Amerikan Dream fallacy, that by moving to a country you become rich if you work hard enough, we also don't go bankrupt after breaking a leg twice in 5 years. Worst student debt you can get is in the UK, its fees are capped at £9k for each academic year. I paid off my student debt in 4 years after graduation, while financially supporting my family and saving for a house in top5 biggest city, which…

I don't think Americans really comprehend the shock and horror that many of us feel about the state of their healthcare and the lack of vacation time, or other European norms such as maternity/paternity time or sick pay.

100% Would Not Swap.

Compulsory nit-pick that not all UK nations charge tuition fees to their residents btw :-)

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#699

Post by alexgmcm »

adrianN wrote: post #364
betaby wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call Canadian (or Fr or Se) wealth inequality 'low'. 'Why I can't afford a house', again is more a problem in Fr/De/Se than in US, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne...

Home ownership is strongly influenced by culture. Germans are just happier to rent. Buying often doesn't make a lot of sense financially either. It's not much cheaper to buy than to rent and you lose a lot of flexibility. I could afford to buy a house, but I don't want to. That would just tie up a large fraction of my wealth into one fairly risky investment and make it much harder to move when my life changes.

Germany also has among the lowest median household wealth in Europe[1] despite having a high median income[2].

This explains the high wealth inequality we observe[3], despite the low income inequality[4].

This could be caused by the low levels of home ownership given that home ownership (and the associated leverage) is a huge tool for wealth accumulation for the average person.

I know that people say you can make more from ETF's etc. than real estate, but I'm not sure if that applies so much to your primary residence given you will always need somewhere to live and a bank isn't going to lend you hundreds of thousands of euros to invest in ETF's, but they will for your primary residence.

The extra mobility you have while renting is an advantage but one that comes with a hefty price.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income#Median_equivalen...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_eq...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#700

Post by distances »

paxys wrote: post #159

Competition. The only way a company will pay you more is if you threaten to go work for the one across the street. European labor laws actually work against the interest of employees in this case, since everyone there has longer term contracts, long notice periods and strict non-compete agreements. I also don't agree with your second point. Salaries of software engineers in the US aren't "skewed" or "inflated". If an…

I don't know anyone with a non-compete in Europe. I'm sure some exist, but they are exceedingly rare and expensive for the employer as they'll of course have to pay compensation for the non-compete period.
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