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Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

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Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are a small minority of people who can raise VC on just an idea because they're white, wealthy, and went to Stanford Really? Does white people baiting have to become totally normalised? It’s not like East and South Asians aren’t over represented in VC land.

I say "white, wealthy and went to Stanford" because that is the reality of it. The "Hi, I'm going to raise money on nothing but an idea because trust me" strategy does not generally work if you are Indian, Chinese, or any other minority ethnicity, unless you previously had an exit (in which case you know just how hard actually building a business is, and my comment doesn't apply to you). It largely also does not work…

Do you think (a) White applicants are more likely to get into YC? (b) Founding teams with no white people that get to demo day are less likely to get funded than those who do?

I know YC is a relatively small part of the VC ecosystem but it’s pretty influential. If the VC ecosystem is as racist as you say there should be plenty of opportunity to make better returns out there for some enterprising VC.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#682
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they don't want it, or don't believe in the startup, what are they doing there?! It's a job. Early employees working 12-14 hour days are not doing themselves or the startup any favors. If the market were rational, compensation would be more in cash and less in kool-aid, the importance of work-life balance would be understood even at the early stages, and the idea that a startup has some special kind of magic--wh…

> It's a job. Early employees working 12-14 hour days are not doing themselves or the startup any favors. I worked in early stage startups. There is absolutely a strong sense of a small, intimate team working hard for a common goal. Nobody is claiming or treating it as "a job". When the founders were asking the whole team to regularly work entire weekends before launch, nobody said it was "a job". > If the market wer…

> The reality is that startups need people to work harder, sacrifice more of their lives

There's probably two areas where we might disagree here.

One is that "sacrificing more of their lives" leads to better outcomes. Reasonable people can disagree on whether, or under what circumstances, 80-hour weeks and weekends at the office actually do help the company.

When you are a founder, it is hard not to work all day every day, and you have to actually force yourself to take time off or you're likely to become less effective without even realizing it. Often this same intensity and drive filters down, but in a distorted way, by the "nobody wants to leave the office first" effect. Hard work "theater" is just as common in startups as it is anywhere else, but the hours are longer and it is even more destructive in the long run. Where the correct balance should be between "real artists ship" and professionalism and having a life outside of work--that's a big issue.

Setting that aside, the other area where we might disagree is that if you decide long hours are where it's at (and I'm not going to disagree with how you run a company if it's yours) then how do you motivate people to do that?

> When the founders were asking the whole team to regularly work entire weekends before launch, nobody said it was "a job".

Is that because nobody would do that for just "a job"? Or is that because nobody would rationally do that unless they were being fairly compensated? Finance and petroleum are very different industries but in both of them people put in long hours, risk their health, and are (sometimes) well compensated.

Leaving aside pep talks, let's say you can motivate people to work long hours by giving them either equity or cash. Even if the expected value of the equity is higher, the higher variance makes the cash a far better choice for most employees. The question is, if employees were compensated wholly in cash at whatever rate the market would set, but had the option to buy the equity they are getting for the salary they are giving up, as a totally unrelated and optional transaction, how many of them would take it?

> This formula worked well in SV for decades

How do you avoid survivorship bias here?

Regardless, we can agree that the situation has gotten worse, in the sense of people taking compensation packages that you need a finance degree to understand, but I wouldn't say it was rational for most employees taking early equity even before it got worse.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#683
post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whatever my next job is, it has to give private offices, end of story. Given how incredibly rare private offices seem to be these days I can't imagine what kind of leverage you must have to be able to stick to such a requirement. Especially since unlike salary and other benefits it's not something that any company can decide to give you. Either they have private office culture or not. If they are an open office com…

The most important leverage is to just say no if they won’t agree. It doesn’t matter what level or specialization or education or experience you have. The only way to win a negotiation is to just genuinely not want what the other party is offering if it doesn’t meet your criteria, and turn it down. Obviously, if you are desperate for a job due to other factors, you may be literally unable to turn down a suboptimal of…

I get it. But what you are describing is quite optimistic/idealistic.

Most companies will say "no thanks" and move on to the next candidate in their list.

There are much smaller things that companies treat as deal breakers, let alone asking for a private office. The dynamics of it just doesn't work if there is a open office plan with 20 people working in it, then there's one lone snowflake demanding their own office. Even if they agreed to that you wouldn't want that nightmare.

Your practical options would be limiting your choice to companies that have private offices baked into their culture or remote jobs.

Most people can't realistically afford to exclude that many job opportunities from their pool.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

400k is reasonable for total comp after a few years of experience. Note that total comp includes a bunch of stuff that's technically discretionary, like your annual bonus, and a bunch of stuff that's paid out but not really cashable, like meals and health insurance. Your pre-tax cash, sans benefits, is probably closer to $200k.

People don't usually include health insurance and free meals when they think about their total comp.

If it goes on my taxes, it's part of comp.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many, many people are committed to jobs for reasons other than money, across all walks of life. This is often true for engineers, too. Of course. But there's a reason why SV begun this expensive tradition of giving engineers substantial equity: the realization that startups and other ambitious companies must align employee incentives with company success. It's possible that the employee will develop some irrational…

Again, I definitely agree about early stage employees having substantial equity. But I would also not call dedication to a job for reasons that go beyond compensation "irrational."

There are costs to "dedication to a job". These costs must be balanced with benefits, or choosing them is irrational.

Notice you're talking about "dedication", which is different than "I'm working on rewarding problems in a fun team". That's the opposite of dedication. Dedication is what keeps you committed to a team when it's no longer fun, working on problems that are no longer rewarding.

I've seen plenty of people give their heart and soul to startups, that ended up exiting in ways that made the founders and VCs rich, while these people walked away with nothing, often not even a job (since their old job was effectively gone in the exit). Is it rational to choose such fate?

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#686
I've worked at a couple of the top tech companies and have been co-founder of a startup with a successful exit.

Pros:

* Low stress. I find the most stressful thing at work is trying to figure out what my boss wants. (Small) Startups are easy -- just stay alive and find product market fit.

* Power/control. Things are small, so it's easy to know a large part of the codebase/product. This allows one to quickly make changes to support the business.

Cons:

* Pay. This has been well documented in this thread.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#687
One thing I think most startups can do well to remember is that engineers are not the only hires a company needs to make and that modern tech companies very rarely fail due to technology factors. I'm curious why there isn't a greater emphasis placed on non-technical roles? My only conjecture is inherent bias, but I could well be biased myself in throwing that out there.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say "white, wealthy and went to Stanford" because that is the reality of it. The "Hi, I'm going to raise money on nothing but an idea because trust me" strategy does not generally work if you are Indian, Chinese, or any other minority ethnicity, unless you previously had an exit (in which case you know just how hard actually building a business is, and my comment doesn't apply to you). It largely also does not work…

Do you think (a) White applicants are more likely to get into YC? (b) Founding teams with no white people that get to demo day are less likely to get funded than those who do? I know YC is a relatively small part of the VC ecosystem but it’s pretty influential. If the VC ecosystem is as racist as you say there should be plenty of opportunity to make better returns out there for some enterprising VC.

I think YC is pretty unrepresentative of the VC industry in this regard, simply because the VC industry is as racist as I say and YC is hoping to be that enterprising VC that seizes this opportunity for better returns. The YC partners have been pretty open about this - racism creates a market opportunity, and so they've put in a significant amount of working in retraining their own unconscious biases so that they don't miss the market openings that are left behind by other firms. (I should probably also say that they're not doing this just for better returns - it's also the right thing to do, but it has the side-effect of being economically rational.)

There are a few other VC firms that similarly work hard to avoid missing promising founders of minority backgrounds, but they are still the exception rather than the rule. Over time, the "rich, dumb, and prejudiced" folks will get flushed out of the market, but that's over a lot of time. Besides, they'll probably just get replaced by a different set of prejudices - nobody can be 100% unbiased, you can only hope to replace biases that are useless and arbitrary with ones that are somewhat more useful.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#689

You have 650+ responses already, so I accept mine will be in the `/dev/null` of history. As somebody who has worked at startups, including a Y-Combinator startup. The I have experienced three primary hiring issues that are so common they are worth noting. 1. People presume startups are inherently less stable than larger corporations. Risk aversion and the presumption that larger organizations are more stable in all c…

Actually I'm reading all the replies :).

I agree with you very much that a real issue is myths that simply aren't true, or aren't universally true - working hours in particular.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#690

As a former startup founder, I tend to agree that most startups are low-balling early employees. These employees over-value their stock by imagining what it would be worth if the company reaches $1B valuation. It really is a lottery ticket. But in my opinion, the answer is more pay, not more equity. Employees should get market comp, period. Doesn't matter how early-stage the startup is. If a founder can't afford empl…

> If a founder can't afford employees at market rate, they shouldn't be hiring yet. That's a little bit too strict, and as such is not a position founders are likely to accept. Sometimes they need employees before they can pay market rate, and market rate is pretty steep for a senior engineer in the Bay, for example, and most other areas startups are heavily recruiting. It's reasonable to offer generous equity for ea…

> Sometimes they need employees before they can pay market rate,

But you don't get to have something just because you need it. That's not how it works. You need to raise more money, so that you can afford to pay the employees. It's not fair to make the employees act as unofficial investors in your company, and then give them a deal that the real investors wouldn't accept.

> giving out 0.01% even to earliest employees

I hope that's an exaggeration and no one actually goes that low. (EDIT: Re-reading I think you actually meant 1%, not 0.01%?)

But if you go based on the valuation paid by the investors, then even 1% is a laughably low offer during the seed stage.

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