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Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

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661–670 of 830 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#661

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

Are you talking about management? I prefer to work in office and have no opinions on whether my teammates WFH or not. I do find remote meetings extremely unproductive though. What I find annoying is all the reluctance to return to office, especially where companies are trying to compromise and only require a few days a week. If there was no COVID, people would be working in office as they've always done. You were hir…

> If there was no COVID, people would be working in office as they've always done.

If my aunt had a dick, she'd be my uncle. This is a useless counterfactual because what happened has changed the dynamic. We can't base anything on a counterfactual.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#662
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. And then are people who are fully invested, but also aware that a lot of time in office is spend on ... other people trying to get socialization. Cause they don't build relationships outside of work, but still need to talk to people, so they drag meetings and discussions forever. And that is not being in…

The unfortunate fact is that at least in the US, even if you live in a "walkable", "transit oriented" city, there is no way to run a business that's community oriented. Which means that the only actual community available is your work community. How are you supposed to "build relationships outside of work" in that environment? I get that your opinion of this is that it's degenerate, and this may be true - but have so…

> How are you supposed to "build relationships outside of work" in that environment?

Do the things you enjoy: run, bike, ski, live music, drinking, church - whatever floats your boat. Other people do them too. Meet them. Be friends.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#663
We've collectively decided that the old way is not good enough.

"I am altering the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further."

I'll come to the office if paid X times current wage to make it worthwhile, and the company wasn't willing to pay the premium.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#664

It is our unfortunate shared lot in life that we chose a profession most suited to introverted people. For some reason when I say the word introvert people get offended. I find these are these types of people are my favorite people to be around. In particular I found that they have a superpower: they can just sit there in front of a screen for absolutely hours if not days without talking to anybody and just get thing…

>I'm hoping that the recession will kick in harder than it is now and allow the managers to start requiring people to come back in. Those who threaten to quit will make the manager's lives easier so that they don't have to lay people off. This is sort of happening at Facebook right now.

Hoping for a worse economic situation for everyone just so we go back to the office with you? Really?

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As always, NYC is one of the safer US cities in the nation across basically any metric you can find, and sometimes one of the safest. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b... We leave our trash in the streets, and I'm an asshole. So I can concede those points! But most city dwellers in the US live somewhere less safe than NYC.

Haven’t 4 or 6 people literally died on the NYC subway in the last 6 weeks? NYC needs more law & order

It has the highest police budget and the subway budget in the nation and still can't handle crime due to politics. Law, order and thousand other things have to improve there.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#666
post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

40hours a week is 8 hours a day. Let's say you sleep 8 hours. Let's also be conservative and say you have a 1 hour commute each way. That's still 6 hours left. It's pretty easy to find some socialization time in there unless you're taking 4 hour long showers. This isn't just theoretical, _clearly_ many people socialize in the evenings.

By the time I work out, get home, cook dinner, eat dinner, clean, shower, it's like 8pm usually. No one around me is staying out past like 10pm on a weekday. Now I have the job of finding anyone who wants to hang out from 8pm to 10pm on a weekday when both/all of us are exhausted from a long day. Doing the hard math and saying I have 6 hours is just theoretical. _Many_ people may socialize in the evenings, but I'd be…

I had a similar realization at a certain point. I was wasting too much time on chores, so I optimized them out of my life.

Replace all food at home with Huel. No more cooking, no more cleaning, no more shopping (no more driving to stores), no more wondering if you can go out for dinner or if food will spoil.

Make sure all your clothes can be washed together (either all tones of grey, or all colours). Make sure all your socks are the same. Do washing once a week on a weekend.

Move closer to your office to eliminate commute. You don't cook anymore, so can get a place without a good kitchen for cheap.

Suddenly you have infinite time. For what it's worth, I would socialize with people from work (and ex-coworkers) after work. 5pm, off to the pub or a restaurant. Then walk home since I'd live near the office which would be near the pub/restaurant (since we are going after work).

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#667
It is not necessarily being around other people that bothers me, it is the things that goes along with going into an arbitrarily chosen building.

If work starts at 8, I want to be able to sleep until approximately 7:55 and still be on time. I want to make the most use of time that I allot to things as is reasonably possible.

I don't want to feel self-conscious about how I look, what I'm wearing, or how my body or breath might smell - it's not that I don't manage those things, it's that I don't want to have to worry about those things.

I don't want to sit in a place that does not feel like my own. Sure, I can hang up funny cartoons or bring in my own mug or whatever, but if I want a better chair? Gotta get the company to buy it. Want a needlessly fancy desk? Too bad. Wish there was better lighting/less harsh lighting in your work area? Gotta go to facilities - they might do something about it, if they are allowed to do so.

There's also practical things like not having to worry about someone accidentally eating my food, or having to clean up the coffee area because someone else was in a rush, or didn't care.

It also seems like meetings are at least a little bit more purposeful. It's harder to setup meetings online than in person, so it seems like a little bit more thought is put into them, when they do come up. Having everything recorded also helps me refer to it later, if needed.

About the only significant change from working in-person is that I tended to get considerably less work done when I was in-person. I don't know if I would measure higher productivity from WFH as strictly a "good" thing. I think that socialization has its merits too. I always viewed things like birthday parties as a meaningless distraction, but, I also wasn't going to cry about getting paid to eat a small amount of candybread for a few hours. I didn't really enjoy those things, but I could appreciate that others enjoyed it.

I get the desire for comradery, I'm not saying it doesn't serve a purpose, however, I can't help but feel that office comradery is arbitrary and forced. A kind of "You are required to be friends with this person. NOW!" Most of the people I work with are people I would never choose to actively hang out with outside of work - nor would I want to do so. We don't share interests the majority of the time, and that is what I prefer. They are, in large part, a stranger. I do not wish to know more than that they are competent at their job, and do not do things to make my own job harder.

There are people I make a point of seeing in a social setting, and there are people I am required to interact with in a professional setting. I do not think it is appropriate to mix business and friendship. It isn't that I treat work-people like robots, but rather, I have a workplace decorum, and a social decorum. I do not reveal the unprofessional side to professional people, and vice versa. The environment of each calls for different sorts of interaction. I cannot respect a boss who I have seen weeping into a pitcher of beer. The idea of drinking with people I work with is something that I just find incredibly repulsive. Maybe that's not the right word for it, it puts a kind of sickness in my mouth I can't describe; it's like watching pornography with your parents.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#668

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

I'd also add that comments like this: > Now, I am fully aware that there's a low of people for whom the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing and others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people. Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. Are remarkably condescending. Folks opting for a better work-life balance, wh…

I don't understand why people don't want to do WFH to reduce carbon emissions. It seems like the quickest way an individual can reduce their emissions.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on... people work far less than they ever did before, that should be pretty obvious if you just think about it. Further, tons of "work" is done with zero physical strain, lots of those "work" hours are the in-between stuff -- travel, meetings, calls, lunches -- meaning that actual hours laboring are even less. https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours

If my time isn't free to use as I will it's work. I don't care if it involves zero physical strain or if I'm on a call or in a meeting. Being in a meeting is obviously work. Your company is trying to get you to work as many hours as possible for as little money as possible, as a working person you should strive for the opposite. As a worker you are selling your labor (of which you possess a limited amount) and any ra…

You are ranting, but not addressing the point that was made. The post above mine wanted work to become a "much smaller part of most people's lives."

I'm all for maximizing the earnings I make while working, and to be honest, sure, I'd like to build platforms and methods to earn passive income while I am not working. But I don't think it is necessary or required to somehow normalize a 20 or 30 hour work week. Further, I recognize that if my workday allows me to sit in a chair all day, as opposed to hard physical labor in harsh weather, then the moment my work ends, I'm physically capable of whatever leisure activity I want to enjoy. You might technically "work" by sitting in meetings for the same number of hours as people whose bodies are broken down by 40 due to backbreaking labor, but obviously you haven't "sold" your labor to the same extent.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#670
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also add that comments like this: > Now, I am fully aware that there's a low of people for whom the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing and others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people. Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. Are remarkably condescending. Folks opting for a better work-life balance, wh…

> remarkably condescending I suspect there are two big difference between OP and many of the readers here. At least for sure, Berlin vs most major US cities is night and day different in terms of commute and enjoyment opportunity. Berlin is a fun city full of things to do, places to eat, and clubs. Plus it's all accessible without a car. Meanwhile, in the US, it's usually a very different story. Doing something after…

There's also the culture shift of even if it is convenient to do after work fun near the office, you can choose your friends, but you can't quite directly choose your coworkers. Not that it is wrong to have friends who are coworkers, but that you don't need your entire social life "defined" by your job.

Socialization and social life are important to people, but "we need to return to offices for our social lives" rings hollow as a message precisely because some people here that as either the message "you must have a social life with your coworkers [for the good of the company]" or the desperate "I don't have a social life outside of work [please send help!]".

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