Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#661

Post by strken » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:12 AM UTC

sciurus wrote: post #649

strken wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell, OP's talking about the replacement of Mozilla Corporation CEO Brendan Eich, who had an engineering background[0] and was CTO but made a small but controversial donation to an anti gay marriage campaign, with Mitchell Barker, who came from a legal background and was formerly the president of the Mozilla Foundation. At the time this was pretty divisive, because it was a candidate with objectionabl…

Your timeline is off, FWIW. Brendan Eich resigned in 2104 and was replaced by Chris Beard as CEO from 2014 through 2019. Mitchell Baker became CEO in 2020.

Oh dear, yeah, that's totally wrong. I got Chris Beard's MBA confused with Mitchell Baker's law degree.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#662

Post by selfhoster11 » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:12 AM UTC

aeturnum wrote: post #422

selfhoster11 wrote: post #2

They should focus on saving Firefox. - Cut out all (or at the very least, most) initiatives that don't serve the goal of promoting Firefox's market share or sustainability going forward - Donate the major money drains that aren't Firefox to the Apache Foundation or another worthy custodian - Fire all inessential staff that don't want to work on Firefox. - Get a CEO/upper management that are in it for the passion, not…

I agree with your topline goal, but I am surprised by the way you think about it. Most of what you recommend has no obvious connection to firefox-the-program. Like... > - Donate the major money drains that aren't Firefox to the Apache Foundation or another worthy custodian > - Fire all inessential staff that don't want to work on Firefox. > - Get a CEO/upper management that are in it for the passion, not the money, a…

My impression is that Mozilla is too focused on basically everything that isn't Firefox - to me, it's axiomatic that Firefox wouldn't be in such a horrifying shape if they were focused on it. They are lacking for attention, and not money, which is why they should jettison everything that isn't Firefox or doesn't serve Firefox. Anyone else can do funny extensions or VPN or what have you got, but browser-making is Mozilla's core competency that no one in the FOSS ecosystem has mastered to the extent they did.

It seems evident to me that if they made Firefox into a power user browser again, somehow, then power users would flock to it again and bring in some of their peers and family, putting it back in a safe 10-15% range of market share where it can't be picked off or ignored by Google. And I know that power users are leaving en masse - I stuck with them through thick and thin for nearly 15 years, and I'm finally getting ready to leave if the situation doesn't improve.

> I think there is every reason to believe that a healthy Mozilla has Firefox at the center

Neither Mozilla not Firefox are healthy, in my assessment. And this is exactly because they are getting sidetracked instead of centering on Firefox.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#663

Post by freeopinion » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:14 AM UTC

stjohnswarts wrote: post #592

freeopinion wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Mozilla and Firefox are cherished by a lot of people who would like to see them thrive. But I think if given a choice, most of those people would prioritize the survival of a viable competitive web browser. The name of the product and the sponsor of the product are less important. So a related question might be, "What would it take for a Firefox fork to succeed?" If you think the CEO of Mozilla is a cancer, a…

A fork in no way solves this because you can't for the devs who mozilla is paying. Firefox is a huge project requiring devs with lots of experience in the technology who also like to be compensated. You can't fork firefox, you have to change the leadership or nothing else will change.

Sure. Bullet point #1: Funding.

Next?

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#664

Post by selfhoster11 » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:20 AM UTC

smorgusofborg wrote: post #432

selfhoster11 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thunderbird was on my mind when I was writing this. I think it ultimately comes down to whether they can afford any missteps or side concerns at all - and if the answer is "no", then Thunderbird must be cut loose no matter its value. It can always be mothballed until the times get better, or it can even be given "on loan" for some fixed duration to another trusted FOSS foundation and re-adopted when the time is up. A…

Thunderbird has always been their opportunity to demonstrate their stack is a general ecosystem, but it's headaches show that their stack isn't a good ecosystem for anything that isn't Firefox. They shouldn't be trying to build thunderbird for its own sake, they should be demonstrating their equivalent for electron and feel pressured to make it no worse for users than the current Thunderbird, but attractive/stable en…

For the record, I disagree with the assessment that they should be building an Electron email client. Most users are already using a paid/monetised Electron email client, a soon to become Electron client (like is supposedly planned for Microsoft Outlook), or a webmail interface.

Electron clients cannot compete on deep technically obscure feature sets, simply because they didn't have 20 years to accumulate them. They cannot compete on latency. Thunderbird should remain native.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#665

Post by oaf357 » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:22 AM UTC

I think it’s more a Mozilla’s losing mindshare problem. There’s a lot of upside at other places for the same skills Mozilla is looking for.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#666

Post by tored » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:23 AM UTC

StillBored wrote: post #635

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or create giant backdoors. Using memory safe languages is a big step towards this goal.

Yes, but consider the engineering effort to create a general purpose memory safe language vs just a domain specific one in comparison to the work required to write a browser, which also includes another domain specific language (javascript). Seat of the pants, I would say getting something like rust on par with g++/clang code generation, and 3rd party tools is probably in the same ballpark engineering wise as actuall…

Yes, you have to ask yourself why everyone is using V8 as their JavaScript runtime and not Mozilla’s equivalent or why every alternative browser is using Chrome as a foundation.

Or XUL wasn’t packaged as cross platform GUI framework.

And then of course the Firefox mobile fiasco.

My guess is that the engineering and management don’t interact. Two different companies within the same company, no coherent vision.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#667

Post by takeda » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:23 AM UTC

selfhoster11 wrote: post #563

takeda wrote: post #459

I'm trying to save it by continuing to use it, and everyone should do so as well. Once it is gone Google will have pretty much absolute control over the web (not that they don't already, but it will be official then).

There's a point beyond which you're just beating a dead horse and turning it into a pulp. Firefox isn't dead yet, but... yet is the keyword.

Yes, but the reason it's losing market share is because people are stop using it, including technical people. I personally find it superior to Chrome.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#668

Post by spankalee » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:23 AM UTC

meremortals wrote: post #641

spankalee wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to the social justice blog part?

The first that comes to mind is [We need more than deplatforming]( https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplat... ) There's a bit of discussion about it here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25838861

So not a blog, but one blog post?

That's certainly no indication that Firefox is first and foremost a social justice blog.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#669

Post by selfhoster11 » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:23 AM UTC

javitury wrote: post #394

selfhoster11 wrote: post #2

They should focus on saving Firefox. - Cut out all (or at the very least, most) initiatives that don't serve the goal of promoting Firefox's market share or sustainability going forward - Donate the major money drains that aren't Firefox to the Apache Foundation or another worthy custodian - Fire all inessential staff that don't want to work on Firefox. - Get a CEO/upper management that are in it for the passion, not…

What do you think of Mozilla Developer Network (MDN) or Rust? Do you think they were a mistake?

Not necessarily. I do think that UX redesigns, and social and political advocacy were definitely mistakes, though.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#670

Post by meremortals » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:29 AM UTC

spankalee wrote: post #668

meremortals wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first that comes to mind is [We need more than deplatforming]( https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplat... ) There's a bit of discussion about it here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25838861

So not a blog, but one blog post? That's certainly no indication that Firefox is first and foremost a social justice blog.