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Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

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Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#661

I think there's also something to be said for passive processing. Sometimes I'll know I need to write some code or some function and I'll just think about it in the back of my head while doing other things, sometimes for a whole day or two. Then I'll sit down and write it in like 20-30 minutes. Did I work 20-30 minutes, or have I been working for a day or two? I would say a day or two, and the 20-30 minutes was the t…

It is SHOCKING beyond words to me what accepted dogma it is that the human resources/devs only work on one thing at a time, they start at the beginning, plan, write, test, & code review the thing, and then move on. It's a huge waste of human potential. Background processing is vital. Getting hit by the various silly hurdles in the path to shipping- having to go from the elation of getting something done to having to…

> how conventional & dogmatic companies are

Seems to invite a deep dive into the history of Gantt charts or their use.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#662

I think there's also something to be said for passive processing. Sometimes I'll know I need to write some code or some function and I'll just think about it in the back of my head while doing other things, sometimes for a whole day or two. Then I'll sit down and write it in like 20-30 minutes. Did I work 20-30 minutes, or have I been working for a day or two? I would say a day or two, and the 20-30 minutes was the t…

Absolutely. Sometimes for the whole day I remove code because of dead path or rewrite part of the code because of wrong initial design. Am I adding negative productivity?

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#665

I think there's also something to be said for passive processing. Sometimes I'll know I need to write some code or some function and I'll just think about it in the back of my head while doing other things, sometimes for a whole day or two. Then I'll sit down and write it in like 20-30 minutes. Did I work 20-30 minutes, or have I been working for a day or two? I would say a day or two, and the 20-30 minutes was the t…

It is SHOCKING beyond words to me what accepted dogma it is that the human resources/devs only work on one thing at a time, they start at the beginning, plan, write, test, & code review the thing, and then move on. It's a huge waste of human potential. Background processing is vital. Getting hit by the various silly hurdles in the path to shipping- having to go from the elation of getting something done to having to…

Creative procrastination is a good way to put it. Sometimes I found myself procrastinating and couldn't push myself to move beyond a certain point. Later I realized it's the wrong path after all and it's like my subconscious is recognizing the approaching leading to nowhere and stops me from wasting time.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#666

I think there's also something to be said for passive processing. Sometimes I'll know I need to write some code or some function and I'll just think about it in the back of my head while doing other things, sometimes for a whole day or two. Then I'll sit down and write it in like 20-30 minutes. Did I work 20-30 minutes, or have I been working for a day or two? I would say a day or two, and the 20-30 minutes was the t…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Poincar%C3%A9 > He never spent a long time on a problem since he believed that the subconscious would continue working on the problem while he consciously worked on another problem. This is definitely a thing. Intellectual labor just isn't physical labor.

I can’t even count the number of times that I’ve had to give up on a problem after banging away at it for an afternoon only to solve it in 20 mins the next morning. Almost never fails.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#667
post #212

I've been a software engineer and managed software engineers for 20 years and worked in all kinds of businesses. This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. Doing just as much work as your employer requires and no more is way less of a problem than employees who actively steal, commit fraud, bring drama and distract other team members, or are introducing defects because they've faked their…

> However! I will say that this way of working and living comes with some significant hazard to your mental health. Doing something you don't like, care about, or believe in for decades long periods of time can really mess with your sense of self worth and happiness in life. Agree with everything you wrote except this part. I have worked jobs where I truly believed in the mission, worked hard, was paid a lot, achieve…

I've seen it suggested that people tend to be level in personal growth while advancing in career growth, or level in career growth while advancing in personal growth, either more or less deliberately.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#668
There is a massive mismatch between what people think an average employee looks like versus actual reality.

My girlfriend and I both have reasonable higher education, but it's nothing fancy. Culturally, we come from a working class background. So we have a very strong sense of duty and a great work ethic. It doesn't translate into crazy hours, but we're reliable. We show up. Focus during work hours. Deliver on promises.

We've always considered this to be the absolute minimum one can do. We're basic workers, nothing more.

How wrong we were. It seems that in whichever company we work, or in whichever department of some large company, we almost immediately rise to the top 10-20%. Every single time. There's almost a gravitational pull towards us as peers and managers discover that we get things done.

We've said it many times to each other: "surely it can't be this easy?"

This isn't a compliment to ourselves. We're not brilliant. We don't work crazy hours. We're not super ambitious. Just plain workers. I don't know what everybody else is doing, but apparently not that much.

And this connects to your situation, the standard is very low.

Another aspect that works in your favor is obscurity. Even if they have the idea that you don't do much, they can't be sure, it could be that you're working on things they're not aware of.

Confronting a peer that seems to do little has a very high social cost, so people prefer to avoid it. It's not their money pissed away and people prefer to avoid drama.

And yet another aspect is our species' adaptability. We rapidly adjust to any situation. When we have a lazy co-worker, a few weeks down the road that's the new normal. It's no longer remarkable and we've adjusted to work with that reality.

By the way, I pass no judgement on people with a lower work ethic. A huge amount of work is incredibly dreadful, boring, non-rewarding, and we ask people to basically sacrifice their entire life to it, decades in a row, every waking moment. This idea that everybody should just switch to their dream job isn't as realistic as some claim it to be.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#669
I've always been very honest when logging my hours, that is when I was paid by hour, and back then I was doing 6 hours of effective work per day.

A few months ago I started being payed by month, and now I do around 5 hours of effective work per day. The more relaxed work day due to less effective hours done was something I was looking forward to; I don't drag this mental burden with me the whole day anymore and it feels great.

My friends always say I work more than I should, but doing less always seemed like cheating and stealing to me.

Employees and colleagues value my output, which is encouraging, but hearing my friends' arguments and reading this post and comments makes me feel like I'm missing out.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#670

Software development isn't a matter of sitting down and generating a fixed amount of code per hour. The rate of writing code is hugely variable. It's not unusual for most of my "productive" (as in typing actual code) time to be concentrated in a few particular days in a month. The time not spent typing (or being in meetings, doing admin, etc) isn't actually "unproductive" though. It's mostly spent solving problems, a…

> Software development isn't a matter of sitting down and generating a fixed amount of code per hour. The rate of writing code is hugely variable... The time not spent typing (or being in meetings, doing admin, etc) isn't actually "unproductive" though. All true statements, but that's not what we're talking about. OP recognizes that he works 5-10 hours a week, and effectively blows the rest of the day off. Reminds me…

> how far am I supposed to excuse an engineer who has committed 100 lines of code in 10 months

The problem is poor understanding of an employee's performance. Squarely on the management side.

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