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Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this post assumes that Firefox is an inferior browser, and that the cause is mismanagement. But is Firefox an inferior browser? I think it used to be, but over the last couple years, it has made massive improvements in features and performance. I use it in both desktop and mobile, and I prefer it over Chrome. As a software engineer, I rely heavily on my browser for work. For me, the multi-account containers i…

> But is Firefox an inferior browser? Several APIs that make powerful web applications possible are missing (e.g. WebUSB, various filesystem access APIs) and Firefox generally tends to lag behind Chrome when it comes to new APIs/web features. The lower market share means that many web sites don't support it properly. For example, I need to keep a Chrome profile around for Zoom since the button doesn't even show up on…

> Several APIs that make powerful web applications possible are missing (e.g. WebUSB, various filesystem access APIs) and Firefox generally tends to lag behind Chrome when it comes to new APIs/web features.

WebUSB may not be the best example, as it was disabled by Chrome because there is no way to secure it. Though I agree in general that some APIs (WebGL) were experimental and behind a flag for too long in FF.

As a counterpoint, Firefox is/was ahead on some important APIs (WASM, U2f)

I have not shared your experience with Teams or Zoom. I use them both daily from FF on OSX.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#653
post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likely rooted in the experience with Brendan Eich who had a long history with Mozilla, was appointed as CEO and then (due to his personal political contributions, mainly Proposition 8 related) essentially forced to resign as CEO due to the accompanying backlash - https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/brendan-eich-steps-down-...

According to wikipedia he now an "ardent" anti-masker for Covid and now people are trying to get him to step down from Brave browser. Does this guy just not learn?

Which shows what a joke Wikipedia is - a series of fiefdoms controlled by heavily biased editors ... the Talk page for that article is hilarious. It (correctly) points out that "ardent" is used nowhere in either source linked - one of which is a tweet, the second a NYT article that itself references a tweet. The dialogue is purposely crafted to encourage the reader to form a prejudiced opinion. Why would this even be relevant to his bio?

The guy literally invented Javascript and cofounded Mozilla. So he made a few political contributions that the Twitter mob didn't like. Maybe if Mozilla focused its efforts more on fixing actual bugs instead of countless UI/UX changes and seemingly purging their ranks of wrong-think, maybe more people would use their browser and we wouldn't be asking these questions.

I personally despise that we have a browser monoculture, but there are few legitimate reasons to use Firefox on platforms that support Chromium.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#654
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The subtitle of the question was "What would you do if you were in charge of Mozilla? How would you save Firefox?" My answer is an attempt at addressing these two questions. My goal wasn't to make Mozilla more profitable, but to ensure that it's focused on what should be its core mission, rather than the mire of sideshows that they engage in at the moment. Also, I don't care how Mozilla the amorphous blob of a corpor…

As a regular end user why do I care about what Mozilla's mission is? Apple makes shiny devices, Google gives me great free services, and in return I use their (perfectly great) browsers. What is one single reason to use Firefox? As long as these large companies continue to put effort into their browsers (which Microsoft didn't do with IE), users are simply never going to switch, the same way no one is using desktop L…

LibreOffice is the dominant OpenOffice fork and the main alternative to Microsoft Office, unless you count Google Docs. LO seems much healthier when compared to Firefox, if anything.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#655
post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google gives me great free services 2005 called, they want their Google-enthusiasm back.

If Google is the new Microsoft, what's Microsoft now?

IBM, I think. They still have an iron grip on the office ecosystem.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#656
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The arrogance is hard to believe. > In 2018 she received a total of $2,458,350 in compensation from Mozilla, which represents a 400% payrise since 2008. On the same period, Firefox marketshare was down 85%. When asked about her salary she stated "I learned that my pay was about an 80% discount to market. Meaning that competitive roles elsewhere were paying about 5 times as much. That's too big a discount to ask peopl…

And she raised her pay while firing essential engineers: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/313658-mozilla-fires-2... I'm a firefox user for over 10 years. I think I'm now convinced there is no future, I'll have to start to adapt to another browser now. I'll give Vivaldi a try.

Vivaldi is the best option! I have been using it as my daily driver, and I don't have any moment of regret.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#657
post #34

Current CEO has no vision and more interested in turning Mozilla into some version of internet ACLU. First and foremost she has to go.

Mozilla Foundation is all about fattening the C-suite payroll (including board members) and whatever payola they can get and not about the corporate lifeline they are supposedly to dutifully protect which is Firefox.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#658
Most of these comments focus on things like 'features'.

Chrome wins mostly because it has 'distribution'.

'WordPerfect' may have been better than 'MS Word' but it doesn't matter if every version of Windows comes with a link to 'MS Word'.

Google uses its dominance in Search to dominate adjacent spaces.

Firefox is simply not 'that much better' enough to convince consumers to switch, and/or they don't have the marketing budget to communicate that to the world.

It's a bit of a commodity product, and Google has significant leverage.

FF would have to work with a lot of partners to convince them to focus on FF for the thoughtful reasons we want them to, even then, it could be hard.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's the opposite. A lot of the HN demographic has in fact mulled this over time and time again, and has no patience for those who don't account for the possibility that one day, the monopolist will stop being a nice guy when there is every incentive to do that. I would rather educate than downvote, but downvoting has gotten to be more emotional than based on the site guidelines, so not everyone sticks to tha…

(FWIW, I don't give a crap about up/downvotes, I want to engage in a deep discussion.) Back in the day when it was FF vs. Microsoft Internet Explorer the need for a competing FOSS browser seemed very compelling, but I don't think FF won marketshare on that, rather it won on merits: FF was better than IE. Today the situation seems different. To me it seems to make sense to let the engine become a standardized componen…

If people wanted features, why was Opera always so niche? It used to be so far ahead in features. I guess Brave today has quite a few features. Maybe Vivaldi.. I haven't looked really.

I think the real issue is that the vast majority of users don't really care about browser features beyond a certain point, a point which all modern browsers have easily covered. You could sit a person in front of Chrome, Firefox, Edge, or Safari and they'd barely notice. If there's attachment to a certain brand, it's mostly emotional. Arguing that people should use X over Y is like arguing that they should drink Pepsi over Coca Cola..

It's hard to differentiate a browser in such a market. It's just a window to the web, with tabs and bookmarks and a handful of features. And an adblocker extension, for some 30% of users. Beyond that, it just needs to work and be fast.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#660
Almost 5 years ago, the ex-CTO of Mozilla blogged this: https://andreasgal.com/2017/05/25/chrome-won/

...and apparently, the conclusions still haven't landed. Firefox lost because it has no reach. They lost on mobile and they don't have billion user properties to push their browser in the way Google has.

Any and all discussions about Firefox UI choices, its engine, whatever...are completely irrelevant if you have near zero reach. This problem cannot be solved with engineering. Nor will it be solved with donations.

Firefox lost and lost a long time ago. It's over. It cannot compete with these market forces. The world in which Firefox was successful, before smartphones, massive online services and a stagnant IE, no longer exist.

With this in mind, what should happen to Firefox? Short term to mid term, keeping it alive and hoping Google keeps wiring Mozilla tons of money, because without it, Mozilla would soon cease to exist.

Long term? I don't know. I would hope that the technical product somehow can be preserved and kept functional, but maintaining a browser is a costly business. It's not the type of project to send to Github and say "best of luck".

The common narrative in the web community that having an extra independent browser engine around is great is mostly a "feel good" story. Having a slightly crappier engine does nothing for developers or users. Firefox also doesn't keep the web "honest" as it's so small now that it can be ignored entirely. There's a reason both Edge and Brave picked Chromium.

As for Mozilla, I have little confidence in their ability to reinvent themselves, with or without Firefox. One of their ex-employees expressed it well on Twitter: they got addicted to a fire-hose of free money which they largely pissed away on fruitless projects.

As counter point to that I would say that besides failed projects, Mozilla has made very meaningful contributions to foundational computing, think Rust and WebAssembly. It's extra painful that in particular the most useful part of Mozilla, the above, is scaled down.

Mozilla these days comes across as a woke blog. Preachy, deeply political, yet without actual impact. I follow the simple rule in life where if somebody is constantly telling you how virtuous they are, they are the opposite. Because good people don't need to tell the world that they're good. "Progressive" Mozilla is quite the fan of neoliberal economics, as they fire a huge amount of workers (even during COVID) whilst enriching themselves as reward for...running the company in the ground. They are THE privacy browser (nope) and build an advanced container to castrate Facebook, yet don't do the same for Google services (for well known reasons). It's all very hypocritical and hollow.

Preaching is not only tiresome, it also doesn't pay bills. So go an do something useful in establishing "revenue earning products". A bookmarking service and a rebranded VPN fail to impress.

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