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Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

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Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#651

Post by memling »

Igelau wrote: post #219
memling wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance, if they ask you why you left Amazon, you'd better not be saying "I found an important problem and I didn't get recognition for it." Tell them you had a personal emergency or something. Can I push on that a little? Lying is a Bad Move. There are, however, ways to finesse the conversation if it comes to that. But there's literally no reason you can't just come out and say, "I wasn't getting benefits, an…

"Finessing" the conversation and telling partial truth is also lying. No one ever got hired without some lying, whether they exaggerated some part or left out another. E.g. "Why did you leave Company X ?" "I hated it and was fired for low performance. But I'm much better now!" said no one ever. Say "family emergency" and they'll always take you at your word and leave it at that. Just don't overdo it -- more than one…

> "Finessing" the conversation and telling partial truth is also lying. No one ever got hired without some lying, whether they exaggerated some part or left out another.

I suppose that's an opinion, though I disagree.

There are certain things, for example, that an HR rep is not allowed to ask you by reason of law. I omit questions and don't volunteer information like that all the time; is that a lie? I also never, or rarely, volunteer my current salary; is that a lie?

It's always the case that different perspectives tell the same story in different ways, and part of what OP may need is a changed perspective.

If I were fired from a job for cause, it's likely that I'd need to have an explanation. Not all places will check references or confirm employment history, but were I a hiring manager I would. If that came up I'd want to chat with references and the candidate about the situation.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#652

Post by ptero »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #612
endymi0n wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's spot on from the advice. I'll add that OP — Your biggest issue seems to be extremely high intelligence, paired with a lack of empathy and social functioning, which created a self-expectation of massive grandiosity. But you keep failing to deliver on it because you can't get your highly powered brain on the streets, leading in self-pity and depression. Not good, but salvageable. How do I know? My life story rea…

Sorry, but I think you're reading way too much in the OP. Their account is compatible with their biggest issue being "extremelly high intelligence" coupled with a lack of empathy, but it's also compatible with ordinary intelligence coupled with some bad choices- and the chances are that the latter is the right explanation ("extremely high intelligence" should only be the case very, very rarely, by definition [1]). I…

You are right that the poster you replied to makes many assumptions. But I think his post is still very valuable to others: I have seen smart people shoot themselves in the foot doing just what was described and that advice is a good thing to keep in mind. My 2c.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#653

Post by exdsq »

benhurmarcel wrote: post #648
exdsq wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really dislike the suggestion that someone who didn't attend college is therefore unable to write. - "i" should be "I" - "You are still young, plenty..." should be "You are still young, with plenty..." - "would currently hire you," shouldn't have a comma - "entry level", "dead end", and "world famous" should all be hyphenated - "AAA games at an..." should be "AAA games in an..." etc...

> I really dislike the suggestion that someone who didn't attend college is therefore unable to write. That's not what he said. He suggested that someone who doesn't write well probably didn't attend college.

> Your writing is not strong, i can tell you did not attend college.

Maybe you're right but this is how I read it.

Alice's writing is not strong -> Alice did not attend college.

therefore

Bob's writing is strong -> Bob did attend college.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#654

Post by helsinkiandrew »

ma2rten wrote: post #388
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #211

As a hiring manager, the things that stand out to me in your post: - You said you quit a job at EA, quit a job at IBM, dropped out of college your freshman year. You may have valid reasons for leaving each of these, but you have to see this from the manager's perspective: You had 3 different great opportunities that all came to a dead end at the beginning of your career. You need an alternate narrative. - You talk ab…

I don't necessarily agree regarding FAANG. Once someone gets an interview it doesn't matter much what their previous work experience is.

Presumably lack of previous work experience would be visible on the resume and the any competent company would filter people out before interview if that is important to them.

Once you have an interview, presumably its something that they learned from it that gets you rejected.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#655

Post by throwaway79392 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #211

As a hiring manager, the things that stand out to me in your post: - You said you quit a job at EA, quit a job at IBM, dropped out of college your freshman year. You may have valid reasons for leaving each of these, but you have to see this from the manager's perspective: You had 3 different great opportunities that all came to a dead end at the beginning of your career. You need an alternate narrative. - You talk ab…

I can confirm this view in part from a dev perspective. Also I can empathize with the original problem. I've changed jobs more often than I should've and this is an often asked question in interviews. In fact, if I get asked this, there's a 80% likelihoood that it's going to be a "no". So to add some more points:

> You said you quit a job at EA, quit a job at IBM ...

Approach small startups, they judge much less. In fact a very early stage project (3-4 people) might be very happy to hire you because you seem very smart. The salary might be bad but will give you valuable in-depth job experience that will help you further down the road.

Also about the executive thing: I wouldn't approach executives because they usually hardly know what the company is doing. (They are there to talk with investors, external stakeholders...) Only exception small places. (If I was you I would focus on a technology you like, maybe RoR or Python/Django and develop a small test project. If you feel confident enough even publish it on Github, but that's not a must. Just the muscle memory is good enough and that you can talk about it during interview. (Should be something mundane, like a Todo list or a news article search) And then just look for early stage startups and write them. Or perhaps NGOs, they are also much more open.

Once you've stayed at one relevant job for a year or two you can "double-down" on that and apply somewhere else for more... Most places don't care if you are ultra smart but rather that the usual tasks get done in an acceptable way. From past experience that's what managers are complimenting.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#656

Post by ptero »

odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #614
yarcob wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone never stayed more than a year at a job that's a pretty major red flag. Most hires will take a year to get productive (where they produce more value for the company than they cost). I would never hire someone if I expected them to leave in a few months (except an intern). There are exceptions. An experienced consultant may be hired only for short, specific projects. But if you're struggling to get hired, yo…

> Most hires will take a year to get productive (where they produce more value for the company than they cost). I never fully understood this. In pretty much any company I worked, if by the end of the month you weren't productive (almost fully independent) you would get the boot. Do companies really expect for new employees to take a year to be consistently productive? In startup land, that is like 2-3 product launch…

It is not common, but "a year to value" is not rare either. Some projects (SW/HW interfaces; many multidisciplinary efforts, like biomedical software) take a while to fully get into.

I am not talking about someone not doing anything useful -- that should come quickly. But it may take several months or a year for them to start creating more value than their salary+benefits+other costs. And as long as the new hire shows progress to this I am perfectly OK if the process takes a year. My 2c.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#657

Post by mcherm »

vallas wrote: post #571
kfogel wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to say that this was a kind, detailed, and thoughtful response -- beneficial to the OP, no doubt, but also probably to others. It was nice to be reminded that sometimes the Internet doesn't suck. Thanks for taking the time to write that reply.

> It's a good comment with the right instinct but for the wrong reasons. The biggest red flag is struggling with personal finance. You can't get jobs like the ones he wants if you live beyond your means and constantly land in hot water with money because people who are like that are at risk of turning to evil to make ends meet.

> The biggest red flag is struggling with personal finance.

As it turns out, being unable to get a job (at least one that pays a reasonable wage) is a common cause of "struggling with personal finance".

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#658

Post by jk7tarYZAQNpTQa »

andbberger wrote: post #432
javajosh wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you kinda seem like you might struggle just doing exactly what you're asked to do. Bringing up how frequently you quit things for various reasons or finding issues and bringing them up with your superiors' superiors Yes, this is what stood out for me. OP sounds malcontented, and habitually dissatisfied with his role, and makes antisocial decisions (like spoofing numbers - which is not just dishonest but shows contem…

I think you're reading a lot into a very short post and that it's pretty ridiculous, not to mention extremely condescending, to suggest that OP might have NPD

Lots of people here agree that something's very off with OP. Maybe it's not NPD, but there's definitely something. Could just be poor personal hygiene or social skills. Maybe he's asking for 7 figures at every first interview. Personally I'm very fascinated with the duality in OP's mind of either working at Google or being homeless, like the huge middle ground doesn't exist at all.

And OP seems very concerned about medical insurance, which might suggest something bigger behind the curtains. Young folks often think they're invincible, and medical insurance is last in their list of worries.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#659

Post by sgt101 »

midasuni wrote: post #562
Shugarl wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He just spent a year without any steady source of income, should't his saving run out at one point ?

You should have 40 years of expenses saved in an emergency fund before you start spending a penny on anything /s

40 years is quite a risk - 120 is far better. And saving this is easier than you think, if you commit to not eating and living outside. Importantly do what you are told, and remember your inadequacy!

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#660

Post by jk7tarYZAQNpTQa »

exdsq wrote: post #653
benhurmarcel wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really dislike the suggestion that someone who didn't attend college is therefore unable to write. That's not what he said. He suggested that someone who doesn't write well probably didn't attend college.

> Your writing is not strong, i can tell you did not attend college. Maybe you're right but this is how I read it. Alice's writing is not strong -> Alice did not attend college. therefore Bob's writing is strong -> Bob did attend college.

You just fell into a logical fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent

On the other hand, what the other user deducted was:

* If you attend college -> You probably end up writing properly

* OP doesn't write properly -> He probably didn't attend college

Which is a proper logical deduction rule called modus tollens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_tollens

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