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Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

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Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am constantly surprised how prevalent this attitude is. ChatGPT was only just released in 2022. Is there some expectation that these things won't improve? Is there any expectations that things will? Is there more untapped great quality data that LLMs can ingest? Will a larger model perform meaningfully better? Will it solve the pervasive issue of generating plausibly sounding bullshit? I used LLMs for a while, I…

> Is there any expectations that things will? Seems like an odd question. The answer is obviously yes: There is a very pervasive expectation that LLM's will continue to improve, and it seems odd to suggest otherwise. There is hundreds of billions of dollars being spent on AI training and that number is increasing each year. > Is there more untapped great quality data that LLMs can ingest? Why wouldn't there be? AI's…

If all of this is true, then I would expect LLMs today to be in a whole different league of LLMs from two years ago. Personally I find them less helpful and worse at programming and creative writing related tasks.

YMMV but count me in the camp that I think there’s better odds that LLMs are at or near their potential vs in their nascent stages.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good advice, but not easy to follow, since knowing what to do and doing it are very different things. I think that what he means is that how successful we are in work is closely related to our contributions, or to the perceived "value" we bring to other people. The current gen AI isn't the end of programmers. What matters is still what people want and are willing to pay for and how can we contribute to fulfill t…

> All the greats, like Steve Jobs and so on said that you've got to love what you do. This is probably true for them but the other thing that can happen is that when you take what you love and do it for work or try to make it a business you can grow to hate it.

I guess it also depends on how much you love your work. If there wasn't that much interest in the first place, I suppose you can grow to hate it in time. If that happens, maybe there's something else you'd rather do instead?

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, you have built exactly zero commercial-grade applications that us the working programmers work on building every day. LLMs are good for playing with stuff, yes, and that has been implied by your parent commenter as well I think. But when you have to scale the work, then the code has to be easy to read, easy to extend, easy to test, have extensive test coverage, have proper dependency injection / be ea…

> LLMs are good for playing with stuff, yes, and that has been implied by your parent commenter as well I think. But when you have to scale the work, then the code has to be easy to read, easy to extend, easy to test, have extensive test coverage, have proper dependency injection / be easy to mock the 3rd party dependencies, be easy to configure so it can be deployed in every cloud provider (i.e. by using env vars an…

LLM’s are good at things a lot of people do, because a lot of people do them, and there’s tons of examples.

It’s the very definition of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#635
I truly do not believe that many software engineers are going to lose jobs to anything resembling the current crop of LLMs in the long run, and that’s because the output cannot be trusted. LLMs just make shit up. Constantly. See: Google search results, Apple Intelligence summaries, etc.

If the output cannot be trusted, humans will always be required to review and make corrections, period. CEOs that make the short-sighted mistake of attempting to replace engineers with LLMs will learn this the hard way.

I’d be far more worried about something resembling AGI that can actually learn and reason.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The analogy is that Japanese cars were initially utterly uncompetitive, and the arrogance of those who benefited from the status quo meant they were unable to adapt when change came. Humans improved those cars, humans are currently improving models and their use. Cheap toys move up the food chain. Find the direction of change and align yourself with it. > people trying to replace one guy like myself with 3 Indians ha…

You are assuming I am arrogant because I don't view the current LLMs as good coders. That's a faulty assumption so your argument starts with a logical mistake. Also I never said that I "have no equal". I am saying that the death of my career has been predicted for no less than 10 years now and it still has not happened, and I see no signs of it happening; LLMs produce terrible code very often. This gives me the right…

> If you find it, let me know. That I would view as an interesting proof and a worthy discussion to have on it after.

https://docs.aws.amazon.com/amazonq/latest/qdeveloper-ug/tra...

To be honest, I have no idea how well it works, but you can’t get much bigger than AWS in this regard.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#638
post #630
post #615

I am 61, I have been a full time developer since I was about 19. I have lost count of the number of 'next thing to replace developers' many many times. many of them showed promise. Many of them continue to be developed. Frameworks with higher and higher levels of abstraction. I see LLMs as the next higher level of abstraction. Does this mean it will replace me? At the moment the output is so flawed for anything but t…

I'm only 41 but that's long enough to have also seen this happen a few times (got my first job as a professional developer at age 18). I've also dabbled in using copilot and chatgpt and I find at most they're a boost to an experienced developer- they're not enough to make a novice a replacement for a senior.

I think the concern is that they might become good enough for a senior to not need a novice. At that point where to the seniors come from?

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#639
post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The short answer is they're trying to sell it.

Agreed, but I can't imagine that everybody here on HN that's defending LLMs so... misguidedly and obviously ignoring observable reality... are financially interested in LLMs' success, can they?

I’m financially interested in Anthropic being successfull since it means their prices are more likely to go down, or for their models to get (even) better.

Honestly, if you don’t think it works for you, that’s fine with me. I just feel the dismissive attitude is weird since it’s so incredibly useful to me.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#640
When it comes to my outlook on the job market, I don't concern myself with change, but time-tested demand.

For example: Have debit cards fundamentally changed the way that buying an apple works? No. There are people who want to eat an apple, and there are people who want to sell apples. The means to purchase that may be slightly more convoluted, or standardized, or whatever you might call it, but the core aspects remain exactly as they have for as long as people have been selling food.

So then, what demand changes with LLM writing code? If we assume that it can begin to write even a quarter way decent code for complex, boutique issues, then central problems will still remain: New products need to be implemented in ways that clients cannot implement themselves. Those products will still have various novel features need to be built. They will still also have products that will have serious technical issues that need to be debugged and reworked to the clients specifications. I don't see LLM being able to do that for most scenarios, and doubly so for niche ones. Virtually anyone who builds software for clients will at some point or another end up creating a product that falls into a very specific use-case, for one specific client, either because of budget concerns, restraints, bizarre demands, specific concerns, internal policy changes, or any other plethora of thing.

Imagine for example that there is a client that works in financing and taxes, but knows virtually nothing about how to describe what they need some custom piece of software to do. Them attempting to write a few sentences into a tarted up search engine isn't going to help if they don't have the vocabulary and background knowledge to specify the circumstance and design objectives. This is literally what SWE's are. SWE's are translators! They implement general ideals described by clients into firm implementations using technical knowhow. If you cannot describe what you need to an LLM, you have the same problem as if there were no LLM to begin with. "I need tax software that loads really fast, and is easy to use." isn't going to help, no matter how good the LLM is.

Granted, perhaps those companies can get one employee to dual hat and kind of implement some sloppy half-baked solution, but...that's also a thing that you will run into right now. There are plenty of clients who know something about shell scripts, or took a coding class a few years back and want to move into SWE but are stuck in a different industry for the time being. They aren't eating my lunch now, so what would have us believe that this would change just because the method of how a computer program might become slightly more "touchy feely"? Some people are invested in software design. Some are not. The ones who are not just want the thing to do what its supposed to do without a lot of time investment or effort. The last thing they want to do is trying to work out what aspect of US Tax law its hallucinating.

As for the companies making the LLM's, I don't see them having the slightest interest in offering support for some niche piece of software the company itself didn't make - they don't have a contract, and they don't want to deal with the fallout. I see the LLM company wanting to focus on making their LLM better for broader topics, and figuring out how to maximize profit, while minimizing costs. Hiring a bunch of staff to support unknown, strange and niche programs made by their customers is the exact opposite of that strategy.

Honestly, if anything, I see there being more people that are needed for the SWE industry, simply because there are going to be a glut of wonky, LLM-generated software out there. I imagine Web Developers have been pretty accustomed to dealing with this type of thing as far as trying to work with companies that are trying to transition out of WYSIWYG website implementations. I haven't had to deal with it too much myself, but my guess is that the standard advice is that it's easier and quicker to burn it to the ground and build anew. Assuming that is the case, LLM-Generated software is basically...what? Geocities? Anglefire? Sucks for the client, but is great for SWE's as far as job security is concerned.

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