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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#631

Post by collyw »

hogFeast wrote: post #136
betaby wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call Canadian (or Fr or Se) wealth inequality 'low'. 'Why I can't afford a house', again is more a problem in Fr/De/Se than in US, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne...

I don't know about the other countries you have mentioned but German residential real estate has very high levels of institutional investment and the legacy of rent control (famously, Berlin...although that changed a few years ago). So you have very high wealth inequality, average German net financial wealth is equal to Greece and Germany has a significant number of billionaires, but you also have a system that funda…

What happened with rent control in Berlin?

Rent control sounds like a good idea in theory but in practice it seems the opposite, creating two tiers of renters.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#632

Post by lovecg »

dantheman wrote: post #279
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure, in there own world some tribes might have been far happier than 95% of society is today

That is until they die from a simple infection.

And don’t forget murder. So, so much murder: https://ourworldindata.org/ethnographic-and-archaeological-e...

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#633

Post by iso1631 »

ojbyrne wrote: post #116
iso1631 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you run out of money then you're screwed. What do you do if you are a person who runs out of money and can't pay debt? Surely you have your assets repossessed and some form of debt charge hanging over you for some time so you can't get into that position again (or rather that others will know not to lend you money again) Is it different in the US?

For corporations, it is generally different. "In a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, the debtor corporation is typically recapitalized so that it emerges from bankruptcy with more equity and less debt, a process through which some of the debtor corporation's debts may be discharged." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_11,_Title_11,_United_S...

So in a chapter 11 bankrupcy a corporation is let off its obligations, creditors suffer, but the corporation emerges wealthier than ever?

Why can't an average person do that?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#634

Post by overscore »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #580
frombody wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marginal tax rates are much higher in Europe at lower levels, so in order to pay someone 50% more, you would have to pay them 100% more for them to get a 50% pay increase to make up for the money taken by taxes (the mechanism that prevents wealth inequality)

>the mechanism that prevents wealth inequality False, this mechanism only prevents income inequality but not wealth inequality as existing wealth is not taxed much in Europe. For example, inheritances, assets and properties are not taxed much in Europe (people scream double taxation if you propose that) but income is taxed substantially so you'll never be able to save enough to catch up to the upper classes who own a…

This comment makes the mistake of treating Europe like a country, which it is not.

> For example, inheritances, assets and properties are not taxed much in Europe (people scream double taxation if you propose that) but income is taxed substantially so you'll never be able to save enough to catch up to the upper classes who own assets.

In Ireland, apart from relatively small tax-free thresholds (€335,000 lifetime from parent to child, for example), gifts and inheritances are taxed at 33%.

In the UK, above its (similar) threshold, the rate is 40%.

The US Federal Estate tax rate is 40%, but with an enormous $11,580,000 estate threshold, which is orders of magnitude higher than Ireland or the UK.

Even though Ireland and the UK have some of the highest inheritance taxes in the world, the EU effective average is still ~14% - double the global average of ~7% and on par with the US, where added State taxes vary the average between 12% and 19%. Source: https://www.uhy.com/uk-imposes-highest-taxes-on-inheritance-...

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#635

Post by seppel »

f6v wrote: post #564
dgellow wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What locations are you considering? Because €100k/year in Germany is a really high income.

100k puts you in 1% of the earners, you can get that money as a CTO. Definitely not as a software engineer.

You can easily get into that range as a principal software engineer in Germany. E.g, finance and car industry will pay that, depending on the niche even in a startup if you negotiate properly.

100k will also not put you in the 1% of the earners if you consider the cities where the high paying jobs are.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#636

Post by hbt »

offby37years wrote: post #120
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

As a software engineer your leverage should be higher than near any other profession. This is why SV engineers are paid handsomely. Your productive output eclipses that of any profession without force multipliers. Your income should not be based on input (risk, comfort), but rather your output (scale, value).

based on your output and how many people can also create the same output.

that's what drives down the price. as long as other people are willing to create the same output for less money, you will be paid less

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#637

Post by kgwgk »

barnacled wrote: post #522
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I honestly think this is a completely wrong-headed way of looking at things. You are paid what you're paid not because the company is determining what is 'fair' given all of your circumstances, but rather the minimum they feel they can get away with. Nearly all employees would accept more pay if they were offered it, nearly all employers would pay less if they could - so like any market it is always an equilibrium be…

> You are paid what you're paid not because the company is determining what is 'fair' given all of your circumstances, but rather the minimum they feel they can get away with.

And the maximum you feel you can get away with. It’s a market, after all.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#638

Post by snovv_crash »

arcturus17 wrote: post #481
irrational wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the entire population? No. To developers in Europe? I would say yes. If we can have similar benefits to what they have, they can have similar pay to what we have.

Well you’re situation sounds a bit extreme, and at the extremes there are also people making 6 figures in Europe, especially in the UK and maybe some central/north countries.

Switzerland is an outlier, but there many senior devs end up above 100k.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#639

Post by capableweb »

petters wrote: post #615
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

> The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. Sure, but if you are a really good engineer in software, someone is going to get "very rich" from your work. Why not (partly) you?

Well, you could work for yourself. Often times, it's more stressful, more risky with lower pay until you "make it". So since you can live stress free and afford basically anything you want on a salary as a software developer in Europe, not sure why you would want anything more than that.

Of course, plenty of people work for themselves, that's the beauty of the free marketplace.

But to assume increasing salaries _is the way to go_ feels like such a capitalist/american viewpoint that it's hard to understand why it's trying to be applicable to Europe too.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#640

Post by overscore »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #333
frombody wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marginal tax rates are much higher in Europe at lower levels, so in order to pay someone 50% more, you would have to pay them 100% more for them to get a 50% pay increase to make up for the money taken by taxes (the mechanism that prevents wealth inequality)

That's more or less true in the U.S. too, at the rates software engineers make, at least in NY and CA. In my locality a software engineer making $100k will face a 40% marginal tax rate.

That's fairly low by E.U. standards. The marginal rate in Ireland would be 52%.
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