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Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

#621
I think there are close to an equal number of pro-AI posts.

Personally I just don’t care to use AI tools. I like programming. I don’t like agentic coding or prompting. I’m just not interested.

Sometimes the front page is so full of pro-AI/AI-projects I just skip reading anything that day. I don’t want to yuck in anyone’s yum. I just don’t care. Not interesting.

I’m not sure there is a single consensus or majority opinion on HN wrt AI. Seems there are lots of little camps with different takes.

Re: Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

#623
post #465
post #14

It's simply divided. With every such division A vs. B, the A team thinks HN is anti-A and the B team thinks it's anti-B. This is an invariant. You can see from the following megathread, currently on the front page, that HN is by no means anti-AI: Ask HN: What was your "oh shit" moment with GenAI? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48406174 . Sometimes it just takes the right initial condition (e.g. title) to brin…

Thoughtful comment, and I'd like to add another angle: However meaningful it is to say the community is divided, I also think that individuals are "divided" on the question as well. I can speak from myself as an example (although n=1): I am incredibly open to machine learning and the advances it brings. On the other hand I am extremely conscious of the fact that the current LLMs do often write bad code, which becomes…

Yep, I use it every day. IMO it's a bigger long-term productivity lever for someone who knows good code than it is for someone who doesn't look at the code (at least for systems that are expected to have lots of users).

For those sorts of systems, comments like this just remind me of people pitching UML + codegen-or-outsourcing 20 years ago.

> Users don’t care whether the code was written by AI or by hand, or which framework you used. They care that the product works.

> I say this as someone who has spent more than 20 years honing their craft as a software engineer.

I've worked with outsourced code, and I've worked with similarly-messy/not-forward-thinking first-iteration startup-MVP code that found success and now needs to do more and be more reliable while being cheaper to operate. It ain't pretty.

Once you start modifying working code that people rely on you quickly start to see that the code itself matters. There aren't enough tests in the world to get around this from a quality POV. And piles of copypasta turn into either inconsistent behaviors (bad from a user satisfaction POV) or a continual drag on velocity (bad from a product goals/competitivness POV). And I've run the tools on those sorts of "found MVP, now need to iterate fast" codebases, both on the messy parts and the better parts.

Sure, Claude can chew through the pain points of "let me find the ten copypasta versions of this and try to update them all" and chase down all the weird stupid bugs/janky things that that requires because each of them evolved separately much faster than a human can. But it's not gonna be as fast as it was at writing the first version, and it's gonna get more and more annoying. You hit the point where your agent is churning for hours and running more and more tests and inadvertently breaking more things trying to make the change in all those places, and making MORE code changes to fix those (and those are just the caught broken things the tests cover!).

It's wayyyyy faster and less potentially painful to have it make updates to a well-factored module. "You don't have to read the code" is all well and good until you have a 10k+ line PR that's 10x larger than it needs to be because nobody read the code in the past, and you realize that most of the relevant test files also changed substantially and you don't have that much known-unchanged permutation coverage of the actual things users do... how comfortable are you pushing the "ship it" button then?

Re: Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

#625

I call these AI tools "proprietary non-determenistic database of the free internet". They belong to american companies which can cut off your access if american government doesn't like your country's government. They fed from the free internet that many of us grew up in, store it in humans unreadable form and sell you access to it. If some day claude starts to spit out compiled binaries instead of code nobody will no…

Any Internet service could cancel your account. This isn't unique to AI.

Re: Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

#626
Nobody writes code by hand anymore. Accept it. But trusting AI blindly is a road to hell: the model doesn't have the context the team has.

Hard to admit, but a developer's role today is to hand that context to the machine. Those who started before AI have that skill. How to build it in people who start with AI from day one is an open question for me.

Re: Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

#628
post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thoughtful comment, and I'd like to add another angle: However meaningful it is to say the community is divided, I also think that individuals are "divided" on the question as well. I can speak from myself as an example (although n=1): I am incredibly open to machine learning and the advances it brings. On the other hand I am extremely conscious of the fact that the current LLMs do often write bad code, which becomes…

Yes, I’m in this camp. I’ve been pushing forward some personal projects lately using LLMs. At first, I was delighted at how productive I was, prompting. But over time a lot of cracks have started to show. Claude is good at programming “in the small”. It’s good at getting self contained, well scoped tasks done. But it’s bad at large scale system thinking. Over time, every project I’ve gotten Claude to write has become…

> Claude is good at programming “in the small”. It’s good at getting self contained, well scoped tasks done. But it’s bad at large scale system thinking. Over time, every project I’ve gotten Claude to write has become riddled with poor design choices layered on top of one another until even Claude struggles to make forward progress.

What's really fun about these tools is that this is both true and false!

If you ask these tools to reason about things in-the-large you often get very useful information back out of them.

I've asked about refactors I was thinking about doing, and gotten accurate and useful information back, which as been AMAZINGLY helpful for avoiding "let me start doing this, and then realize 4 hours in that it's not gonna work as well as I hoped" traps.

But it's a very attention-on-one-thing-at-a-time thing. IMO this is fairly inherent to the models, but people have been doing great work making the tooling around them smarter in terms of how to break up tasks ahead of time to compensate, so I'm not gonna say it won't get materially better.

So if you prompt it to do a task in a certain way, especially in a "plan mode" type of usage, you can get a pretty solid recipe + execution of a properly-designed implementation of that task.

But if you're not opinionated and checking in frequently, you're gonna get the sorta median-approach or random-luck-output-of-the-day decision. And so the human-in-the-loop point is unlikely to go away as long as the human has more context. Even if it's half-baked or not-fully-realized intuition about how the code is likely to evolve in the future that you don't put into every prompt.

> It’s also strangely bad at correctness. You can ask it to write unit tests for a project. Unless you’re careful with your prompting, it will only write the unit tests that it knows will pass.

My hunch is that this is the same fundamental problem. When it's attention is fully on "produce the next string of code" the parts of the context that relate to the broader system goals are NOT being considered as much for the output. So you get things like this, even with latest Opus still, when dealing with hard-to-isolate-in-a-single-test bugs (esp when it comes to multi-service call sequences or concurrent code):

- "we need to fix this bug across eight methods in three files"

- "I found the spot! we need to do [blah blah blah]"

- "great, implement that plan"

- "I've done it!"

- "wait a sec... you moved some of the sequencing around, but didn't actually fix the fundamental issue"

- "you're right! i moved [xyz] into [func b] instead of [func a] since it needed to be called later, but actually it needs to be after [func c] since it depends on the output of func b!"

When asked about correctness it's good enough at "reasoning"-style output to spot these issues, but when generating code it's in such a pure "predict plausible code sequences" mode that this can get lost.

Re: Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

#629

I'm just absolutely mystified by this attitude. It suggests to me that you don't see really any of the potential rewards for excellence. It's almost exactly the same thing as saying "there's nothing left to invent." I've watched software change the world SO. MANY. TIMES. during my short-so-far life that I must call such a proposition as the death of creativity bull fucking shit. Using AI makes you less likely to crea…

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Re: Ask HN: Why is the HN crowd so anti-AI?

#630
To be honest, I'm not "anti-AI", that is, anti-LLM/agents, etc., at all. LLMs and their ilk are just a tool. You can use it, or not. And you can use it well, or not. That's it. The tool has its good uses and some benefits are genuine. I should know since I'm no developer, and I should be the prime target for vibe coding uses.

But I really hate with my guts how AI capabilities are shoved down our throats on every instance of consumer-facing software, and I hate how it's carelessly used, sometimes with devastating consequences. The latest case where some accounts were hacked by abusing Meta's AI is an example.

And also, as a teacher, I hate how AI has upended higher education. I'm still adjusting my workflow to work around student's AI-enabled cheating and abuse.

So, while it's just a tool, it's been a tool that has seen some very crappy uses, and companies are quite happy to empower and enhance humanity's worst tendencies with it.

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