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Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

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Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#621

Post by teleforce »

bsenftner wrote: post #257

Well, there is a major architectural reason why the entire M-series appears to be "so fast" and that is the unified memory, which completely eliminates the buffer-to-buffer data copying that is probably over half of what a non-unified memory architecture chip is doing at any given time. M-series chips have an architecture that completely eliminates data copying, just reference the data where it is, and you're done.

I think the UMA is the secret sauce for faster PC/laptop that people tend to overlook since You Can Never Has Enough RAM (TM).

I'm planning to buy HP ZBook Ultra G1a laptop with AMD Ryzen Strix and it seems to be a very good alternative to Apple M series laptop [1]. It can support up to 128 GB RAM (up to 96 GB VRAM) and should be able to run GPT-OSS 120B model.

[1] HP ZBook Ultra G1a 14" Mobile Workstation PC:

https://www.hp.com/us-en/workstations/zbook-ultra.html

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#622

Post by mannyv »

When the device is doing nothing it should use no power. The goal is to get to 'doing nothing' as fast as possible.

That's a legacy of iPhone. And that's a fundamental philosophical difference between Apple and everyone else.

I suspect that's why Apple's caches are structured the way they are: the goal is to stop working. More instruction cache means more work, which leads to less work.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#623

Post by sabdaramadhan »

lenkite wrote: post #186
ben-schaaf wrote: post #101

Battery efficiency comes from a million little optimizations in the technology stack, most of which comes down to using the CPU as little as possible. As such the instruction set architecture and process node aren't usually that important when it comes to your battery life. If you fully load the CPU and calculate how much energy a AI340 needs to perform a fixed workload and compare that to a M1 you'll probably find s…

Hell, Apple CPU's are even optimized for Apple software GC calls like Retain/Release objects. It seems if you want optimal performance and power efficiency, you need to own both hardware and software. Looks like general purpose CPUs are on the losing train. Maybe Intel should invent desktop+mobile OS and design bespoke chips for those.

> Maybe Intel should invent desktop+mobile OS and design bespoke chips for those.

Intel is busy fixing up their shit after what happened with their 13 & 14th gen CPU. Making imagine they making OS its called IntelOS and the only thing you can run is only by using Intel CPU

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#624

Post by sabdaramadhan »

lenkite wrote: post #330
aurareturn wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems if you want optimal performance and power efficiency, you need to own both hardware and software. Does Apple optimize the OS for its chips and vice versa? Yes. However, Apple Silicon hardware is just that good and that far ahead of x86. Here's an M4 Max running macOS running Parallels running Windows when compared to the fastest AMD laptop chip: https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/compare/13494385?baseli...…

Not really sure whether it makes a difference, but the Parallel VM is running Windows Pro, while the Windows OS on ASUS Gaming Laptop is running Windows Home.

Isn't most gaming laptops had Home Singe Language built in? (never had a gaming laptop before)

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#625

Post by lenkite »

sabdaramadhan wrote: post #624
lenkite wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really sure whether it makes a difference, but the Parallel VM is running Windows Pro, while the Windows OS on ASUS Gaming Laptop is running Windows Home.

Isn't most gaming laptops had Home Singe Language built in? (never had a gaming laptop before)

I believe this depends on the OEM.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#626

Post by munchlax »

atonse wrote: post #597
munchlax wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can buy ... for $599 Not sure why you'd think any random nerd has that kind of money. And Walmart isn't exactly around the corner for most parts of the world.

I don't follow, is that a counter-argument to my statement? That there exist people that can't afford that, so that makes it not a good deal?

Not saying it's not a good deal. Linux drivers are pretty good AFAIK.

I'm saying I can't afford it even if I could visit a Walmart.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#627

Post by pdimitar »

pengaru wrote: post #22

My M1 Macbook Pro I used at work for several months until the Ubuntu Ryzen 7 7840U P14s w/32GB RAM arrived didn't seem particularly amazing. The only real annoying thing I've found with the P14s is the Crowdstrike junk killing battery life when it pins several cores at 100% for an hour. That never happened in MacOS. These are corporate managed devices I have no say in, and the Ubuntu flavor of the corporate malware i…

Can you share your entire Threadripper configuration, please? I am looking to build a Linux workstation in the next 12-18 months and started weighing my options.

Weirdly, the choice pool seems to have shrunken in the last few years.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#628

Post by pdimitar »

merelysounds wrote: post #152
wutwutwat wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I seriously hate it that I can't reliably work at a coffee shop for five hours just... take your charger...

They’re relatively heavy, take up space and there’s no guarantee there will be an outlet near your table. When connected, the laptop becomes more difficult to move or pack. It’s all doable but also slightly less convenient.

Always found that take fascinating -- are you sitting at a sofa or those inflatable chair-like things in the coffee shop? Are you changing your body's position multiple times, like, significantly so?

At least from my side, if I have to work on a laptop outside, I'll just find a good table, plug it in an outlet and, you know, work on it, with almost no changes of body position.

Not to be dismissive but I genuinely don't understand what's the problem with your laptop being plugged in when working from a coffee shop.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#629

Post by skeezyboy »

simonh wrote: post #452
skeezyboy wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what about all the components and sensors

Apple has bought startups with various technologies like Anobit, that developed advanced flash memory controllers, and have funded development efforts by partners. For example Apple worked hand in glove with Sharp to develop the tech for their 5K display panels. They also now have their own cellular chip designs in some models, in their quest for independence from Qualcomm. That’s all from memory, I’m sure there are…

so they didnt design all the components and sensors then

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#630

Post by mmcnl »

hajile wrote: post #445
maxsilver wrote: post #374

> Why haven’t AMD/Intel been able to catch up? Is x86 just not able to keep up with the ARM architecture? When can we expect a x86 laptop chip to match the M1 in efficiency/thermals?! AMD kind of has, the "Max 395+" is (within 5% margin or so) pretty close to M4 Pro, on both performance and energy use. (it's in the 'Framework Desktop', for example, but not in their laptop lineup yet) AMD/Intel hasn't surpassed Apple…

M4 Pro was a massive step back in perf/watt over M3 Pro. To my knowledge, there aren't any M4 die shots around which has led to speculation that yields on M4 Max were predicted to be really bad, so they made the M4 Pro into a binned M4 Max, but that comes with tradeoffs like much worse leakage current. That said Hardware Canucks did a review of the 395 in a mobile form factor (Asus ROG Flow F13) with TDP at 70w (lowe…

Do you have any source for this? Would be an interesting read.
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