Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#621

Post by etblg » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 6:13 PM UTC

teawrecks wrote: post #544

Zezima wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've described Brooklyn and NYC at large... if you're anti-car then consider the city. Boston is a good second choice. I've lived in both. NYC comes with the normal downsides of the biggest city in the US: expenses, limited space, crowding, and noise. But this is true of all large cities in the world: Paris, London, Tokyo, etc. But it comes with the immense upsides of a functioning metropolitan transit system, whic…

What if I can't fit in a shoebox and can't afford anything larger? What if I have a dog and want them to have a yard that doesn't require me to leash them every time they want to go outside? I don't mind sharing a yard with neighbors, heck I would even share a kitchen space if I knew it would be maintained well and available when I need it. But none of that is even an option. I don't buy the idea that only hyper-dens…

Live in Queens or Jersey? Take the train in from outside the city? Not all of the city is Manhattan.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#622

Post by khyryk » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 6:14 PM UTC

samuel_backend wrote: post #560

khyryk wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, your work seems like it's a huge part of your life, and it's not anywhere near that for the vast majority of other devs, working remotely or not. People generally spend their "absolute love" points on their kids, spouses, pets, friends, etc. and leave work to be a transaction involving time and money. And why shouldn't they? If someone absolutely loves Wells Fargo, GE, Microsoft, Amazon, or whatever, that c…

Nah, you're wrong there. I actually only work 4 days / week for most of the year. It's not that I am requiring my working time to fill my life with meaning, it's more that I feel the almost third of my life I spent working has significantly lost in fun and meaning for me personally. The whole point of the post was to see how others felt about it and get some insights into different (and similar) perspectives.

Even so, this meaning was never really there at the scale you might be thinking of. I understand its significance for you, but not many people are shedding tears over not having to commute 1 hour or more 5 days per week to be around people they don't really like in an environment filled with distractions, later coming home to a house they can barely afford on 2 full time salaries. To understand the change that has happened, you have to consider the greater context.

If you're a hotshot, you should honestly consider gathering some like-minded people in your area and launching a startup.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#623

Post by hhmc » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 6:14 PM UTC

yupper32 wrote: post #593

hhmc wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

40hours a week is 8 hours a day. Let's say you sleep 8 hours. Let's also be conservative and say you have a 1 hour commute each way. That's still 6 hours left. It's pretty easy to find some socialization time in there unless you're taking 4 hour long showers. This isn't just theoretical, _clearly_ many people socialize in the evenings.

By the time I work out, get home, cook dinner, eat dinner, clean, shower, it's like 8pm usually. No one around me is staying out past like 10pm on a weekday. Now I have the job of finding anyone who wants to hang out from 8pm to 10pm on a weekday when both/all of us are exhausted from a long day. Doing the hard math and saying I have 6 hours is just theoretical. _Many_ people may socialize in the evenings, but I'd be…

If you meet someone for dinner you don't need to cook/eat/clean. Perhaps you could choose not to workout every evening.

It might not come for free, but you can make it happen if you actually want it to happen.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#624

Post by turtlebits » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 6:14 PM UTC

bodge5000 wrote: post #118

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

Are you talking about management? I prefer to work in office and have no opinions on whether my teammates WFH or not. I do find remote meetings extremely unproductive though.

What I find annoying is all the reluctance to return to office, especially where companies are trying to compromise and only require a few days a week. If there was no COVID, people would be working in office as they've always done.

You were hired with the expectation of coming in the office. Either re-negotiate or quit.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#625

Post by hirvi74 » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 6:15 PM UTC

nullandvoid wrote: post #406

hirvi74 wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I have some sort of Office-PTSD or something, but I make it very clear to my coworkers that we can be friendly, but we aren't friends. You don't need my cellphone number, we don't need to go grab drinks after work, etc.. I've just noticed that if you turn your back for a second, then out come the wolves. Less coffee pot talk the better as far as I am concerned. I have my friends and life outside of work, and I…

That doesn't sound healthy. Im no social butterfly, and understand initial boundaries are important, however stone walling everyone at work makes for a miserable work place for your colleagues, and for yourself (due to all interactions being ultimately pointless beyond strictly business).

Well, for one, once we part ways, I usually befriend them. Just not while we are working together. I am super friendly and outgoing, and will talk to them an all, but I keep a lot of my life private for good reason. I do not like to give people enough rope to hang me with.

I'm not perfect, and it's not like I haven't ever broken my own rule, but I think I have been burned all but one time. I've seen how good of "friends" coworkers are when things like promotions, salary increases, etc. are on the line.

Like the group of philosophers, Wu-tang Clan, once said, "protect ya neck, kid"

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#626

Post by arh68 » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 6:18 PM UTC

> others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people

No, buddy, just people like you.

If you really feel your job is slaving at a digital conveyor belt if you can't socialize with coworkers/friends, I just don't know what to say.

No offense, but you kinda sound like an asshole.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#627

Post by braingenious » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 6:20 PM UTC

> But shouldn't we rather work on fixing those things

How exactly would you propose that happen? In order for everyone to work on improving office culture, everyone would have to be at the office, right? Would the first step in this process be to force the people for whom the office is a bad place to go back to the office?

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#628

Post by turdprincess » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 6:20 PM UTC

iamthirsty wrote: post #335

turdprincess wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I agree - the hybrid model where some are in office and some on video is unfair to the remote folks. Watching coworkers whiteboard from a zoom call makes it much harder to collaborate as the remote employee. It’s also harder to get a turn to speak when you are a face on the camera vs in the room. For these reasons I’ve insisted that in hybrid meetings, everyone dials in individually and whiteboards on a virt…

> This is effectively demanding “all remote” from the in-office crowd and taking away their face to face interaction. How is this at all a good thing? It's basically saying: "I've got a limitation because of my choice of working environment, therefore to make life "fair" — which it isn't at all ironically — I'm going to impose my limitation artificially on the rest of the group." Because I can't play with that toy, n…

It is my opinion that the extra inconvenience that in-person folks have to do it dial into a meeting and use a virtual whiteboard is worth it to allow remote folks to fully participate. But ultimately it comes down to how strongly a company supports a remote culture. I’ve worked for 100% distributed companies, and I’ve also worked for places where remote was an afterthought. I imagine at some companies it’s harder to get promoted if someone doesn’t physically see you in all 3 dimensions every day.

As a remote employee I will always try to gravitate towards companies that accommodate me best, but I’m not opposed to the idea that some companies want to be in-person and don’t want to deal with remote. I just chose not to work for those companies.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#629

Post by Kkoala » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 6:22 PM UTC

I share your thoughts on some level. Part of it might be just nostalgia as well. My first job was in the office, in 2018 - 2019, I really cherish those times now. Getting to meet and chat with so many cool people. I had some really close co-workers and we used to go to lunch together basically every day.

Of course the commute wasn't always fun, but it was the norm, there was really no notion of remote work at the company and many other companies either.

Every person is different, but so is also every company and every office. If you don't have that close co-workers or never go out after work or go to lunches, and/or the office is super noisy and large and annoying and from a long distance, obviously you would prefer remote work at that point.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#630

Post by nicholasjarnold » Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 6:23 PM UTC

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #180

bodge5000 wrote: post #118

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

I'd also add that comments like this: > Now, I am fully aware that there's a low of people for whom the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing and others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people. Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. Are remarkably condescending. Folks opting for a better work-life balance, wh…

Agree. It speaks to some bias the OP has towards WFH-preferring people.

I live in a major metro area close to the city center. I worked in a hybrid WFH environment prior to March of 2020 when COVID-19 started freaking people here out. I've now been fully remote 100% for a number of years, and I work with a firm based in another distant US state (with no local office). Do I miss friendly banter with some previous coworkers whom I liked on a personal level? Yes. Do I miss it enough to want to go back to an arrangement where I was expected to be in-office 2-3 days a week. Absolutely not.

For me the benefits in productivity and convenience while working from home outweigh the camaraderie or team lunches or whatever. I still lunch with some of my former coworkers semi-regularly. We pick a place fairly central and those who can show up do. Does this mean that I'm a socially inept miscreant? I think not. It just means that I prefer working in an environment that is maximally comfortable and of my own choosing.

To drive my point home allow me to make a statement: I will never again accept any position that requires me in the office full-time or really any more than a single day per week at most. I just do not have to. I don't tend to target working for , so I have plenty of choices to work with lesser-known companies whom are (very) happy to find someone competent to help them build out their tech stacks. I've found that those lesser-known companies are much less likely to push hardball WFO tactics. If they do...then I simply start answering my unsolicited emails. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Good luck to you, OP. I hope you find happiness out there.