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Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

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Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#611

Post by logfromblammo »

deadmetheny wrote: post #199
Eilene wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone else want to weigh in about geographical differences in the use of drugs or the perception of those who do? It's very interesting to me how different your experience is from those, say, in the Bay Area or in big coastal cities.

As a Midwesterner, I can echo the sentiment that those who use illegal drugs are generally considered to be lowlifes or otherwise looked down upon by older folks, and some younger ones. Cannabis use is something of an exception - it's seen as acceptable by most of the younger crowd and more of the older folks are being convinced it's not dangerous as well. Legal drugs are a-ok. For tech specifically, in my experience…

Soda? You must be from St. Louis.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#612

Post by damla »

ht85 wrote: post #454
btrettel wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll second this. I don't even drink coffee. I've encountered people who seem absolutely incredulous that I take no stimulants at all. "How do you stay awake?" is something I'm asked. My go-to response now is "I don't. If I'm tired, I get more sleep." Some of these people probably think that I'm lying. There are a lot of people who think that sleeping at work is a bad idea, but I think it's a lot better than guzzling…

When I used to smoke, one of my worries about quitting was that I wouldn't be able to do those intense, uninterrupted, full focus 10-12 hours coding sessions. Every couple hours, those 5 delicious minutes, the fresh air, the nicotine rush, then right back at it. I quit smoking a few years ago when my wife got pregnant and have smoked only twice since. I can actually grind more nowadays, and I'm less tired when it end…

I have managed to quit smoking in my fourth attempt. It's been nine years. Being able to work uninterrupted with an urge to smoke and deciding my breaks with my own free will motivated me. This was not the reason for me to quit, but it helped a lot.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#613

Post by Balgair »

jdavis703 wrote: post #534
Balgair wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mate is the 'same' as coffee, in that it's just caffeine. There is some research to say that the mate derived caffeine is largely an isomer of caffeine, in that the molecule is shaped differently. This is then used to explain why mate is more potent to users without a habituation to coffee derived caffeine. However, the research is still ongoing and the isomer theory is not yet proved, AFAIK. Likely it's just a place…

Mate is hard to prepare right. I think a large part of people’s complaints about the taste is because it’s steeped for too long. Even "upscale" cafes frequently make it wrong.

I agree. You have to use just enough of just-not-boiled water and then sip it somewhat quickly. But everyone's tastes differ as to the right amount of 'grassy' flavoring. Best shared with friends, honestly.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#614

Post by darpa_escapee »

maurycy wrote: post #436
darpa_escapee wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it is usually due to being forced to confront life conditions that were being avoided. This certainly may be part of it. However, there are long-term changes in the brain that occur with chronic stimulant use/abuse. I'm looking for the correct number, but I believe it takes about 24 months for the brain to revert to its normal state after stimulant cessation.

Source? (not nitpicking, genuinely curious)

I'm pretty busy so I can only do a cursory search. I cannot find the source I originally read this on, however I will try to find it when I am at home.

Here's what I could find via a preliminary Google search on my phone:

From drugabuse.gov [0]:

> In the aforementioned study, abstinence from methamphetamine resulted in less excess microglial activation over time, and abusers who had remained methamphetamine-free for 2 years exhibited microglial activation levels similar to the study’s control subjects. Another neuroimaging study showed neuronal recovery in some brain regions following prolonged abstinence (14 but not 6 months). This recovery was associated with improved performance on motor and verbal memory tests. But function in other brain regions did not recover even after 14 months of abstinence, indicating that some methamphetamine induced changes are very long lasting.

Here's a graphic they included [1].

This is another source [2]:

> Stopping drug use doesn’t immediately return the brain to normal. Some drugs have toxic effects that can kill neurons—and most of these cells will not be replaced. And while changes to connections between neurons in the brain may not be permanent, some last for months. Some research suggests the changes may even last for years.

I cannot find the studies these articles cite, but I'll try to find them later.

This is related, but is not specific to stimulant or methamphetamine use:

Delta-FosB, an enzyme that is critical to achieve an addiction state in the brain, has a half-life of ~208hr [3]. Multiply that by the standard 7 half-lives to estimate significant elimination, and that alone yields a maximum of 60 days until it is cleared. This enzyme is key in drug and behavioural addictions.

This paper [4] speculates about changes in the brain that last longer than the time it takes to eliminate elevated Delta-FosB levels in the brain.

[0] https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/meth...

[1] https://d14rmgtrwzf5a.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/met...

[2] http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/addiction/brainchange...

[3] http://www.jneurosci.org/content/jneuro/17/13/4933.full.pdf

[4] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC58680/#__sec5ti...

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#615

Post by Uhhrrr »

Eilene wrote: post #592
Uhhrrr wrote: post #494

I have to tell you, I've been in Silicon Valley for 23 years and I've never seen anything used at work besides caffeine and maybe a (company-sponsored) beer on Friday afternoon. Outside of work, I know tech employees who used pot, LSD, mushrooms, 2cb, and (in the late 90s especially) MDMA. None of these had significant impact on their work, although those who did MDMA every weekend seemed a little flaky to me, even y…

What kind of work do you do?

I have worked as a developer in EDA, educational software, and streaming video. Mostly writing code in C++ and Java.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#616

Post by gwern »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #33
anonyx69 wrote: post #13

Modafinil is a hot topic these days

Yup. I used adrafinil(prodrug of modafinil) regularly during university and found it particularly useful in my programming classes. It helped me get "in the zone" while avoiding the euphoria, BP issues, and recovery periods/withdrawals that stronger stuff does. Plus it doesn't show up in most drug tests.

When it comes to programming, I think I've found that modafinil (and doubly so for something which must be metabolized first) is not as helpful as I used to think it was. My problem tends to be getting started; but once I'm started, continuing is relatively easy. So for my purposes, a bit of nicotine gum is just as useful: cheaper & legal, doesn't last as obnoxiously long as -afinils do, and doesn't require as big or long-lasting dose. I've often wished for a modafinil which had a half-life of half an hour or an hour...

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#617

Post by mannanj »

I'd love for to investigate caffeine. At least in American society, coffee is the most utilized in office jobs and also seen as the most accepted.

Does this lead to a lack of scientific and corporate interest on the long term affects? What are the adverse affects on various job performance factors: quality of sleep, memory and attention, actual productivity vs perceived productivity?

Personally I'm an active drinker of caffeinated tea. And I feel less productive drinking it than when purely sober after a month of fasting in Ramadan. While this is a small sample size, and maybe not even correlated, I feel like year after year after re-introducing caffeine I lose productivity and eventually sleep.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#618

Post by jfv »

Eilene wrote: post #587
jfv wrote: post #200

Drug abuse is not a big issue in SV in general. There are a few general themes: 1) Some startups have a heavy-drinking bro-y environment. 2) Weed is common outside of work (in all of SF) 3) As part of the burning man culture a lot of people will occasionally let loose all weekend with molly, LSD, shrooms, and anything else you’d expect at BM 4) Some people will use adderall/modanfil to stay productive during work. 5)…

Would you be comfortable giving some general details about what you do, in what kind of company you work and how long you've been in the industry? (It helps e to qualify your opinion in some way... )

Sure... have worked over the last 15 years in software startups and large companies as everything from an engineer to an adviser.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#619

Post by sanderjd »

kelnos wrote: post #558
sanderjd wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds doubtful to me. I'm not a lawyer (and I don't think it sounds like you are either?) but at least in the US, my understanding is that courts grant quite a bit of latitude to people speaking freely about their own experiences. I don't really know though, but I would definitely be surprised (and incensed) to find out that this is a widespread problem.

I wouldn't be surprised at all, and at the end of the day you can sue for anything, even if you don't believe you can win. Mounting a successful defense costs money, even if the claims are without merit.

Oh sure, you can sue for anything, and defending yourself is expensive. This is a problem in general, but not one worth worrying about in practice (will I get sued for writing this comment - I could!), but I'm a lot more interested in this part of your comment:

> and possibly even win, given that it's probably hard to back up a lot of these accusations in a way that would hold up in court

Assuming I didn't sign any explicit agreement (like as part of a settlement), if I say, "I did not find X to be a good employer because of Y", I do not believe it is necessary to prove Y in court in order to win a defamation suit.

But we're both guessing. I would say that your side would be easier to find evidence of, though, if you're right: do you know of, or can you find, examples of this sort of suit being brought and won?

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#620

Post by copperx »

sizzle wrote: post #468
copperx wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came to the same conclusion after taking modafinil daily for 5 months. I quit because I was getting completely drained by 7pm. I had to hit the bed as soon as I got home, and then slept for 10-12 hours straight. I did the arithmetic and it wasn't worth it. Supposedly, there isn't such thing as a "modafinil withdrawal," but I was nonfunctional for about 6 weeks after I left it cold turkey. Not only that, but because…

Yikes, are the effects still lingering? Have you returned to baseline energy/focus?

That was four years ago, and I was back to my baseline self in about two months.

A month ago I was diagnosed with severe apnea, and since starting treatment I feel like a different person. I wonder whether the apnea was worsened by modafinil four years ago, and that was the reason for my constant wearing down. Maybe I'll do an experiment just to see, but I don't need stimulants anymore to be productive, not even coffee.

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