Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#61

Post by Mz » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 12:59 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #56

jheriko wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is hard, it depends on the situation. i can relate my one experience of dealing with this where i felt that i had to confront a co-worker for boob staring. it made me feel awkward to sit there and notice him doing it, so the lady involved must have noticed too... i pulled him outside on a false pretense and simply said "stop staring at her tits, its making /me/ feel uncomfortable" and as soon as it was pointed o…

> it is simply true that wearing a low cut top to the office is not suitable attire. I would tend to agree, but I believe there are many that would consider that comment "blaming the victim", or in other words, any comment at all about a female's appearance is discriminatory.

I think if women want to be taken seriously as professionals, they have some obligation to take responsibility for their appearance. A woman whose boobs are falling out of her clothing at work is not dressed professionally. I don't think that's discrimination. We don't let men show up in "muscle shirts" either. We allow women to show a LOT more skin than men and still call it "professional." I think this one restriction on keeping the cleavage covered is a very reasonable standard.

http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/02/nothing-but-...

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#62

Post by jheriko » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 1:01 AM UTC

i could really go for some of these guidelines too.

i like to think i am fairly equal minded, but at the same time i do put my foot in my mouth and fall into the misogynist camp more than i would like.

some things are obvious, but every once in a while i state what seems like obvious truth and get slammed for it just because there is a woman involved.

(don't get me wrong, i also put my foot in my mouth because i am an ass)

as with all such things the best defence is to not be in the wrong place at the wrong time doing the wrong thing, so to err on the side of caution. although, it can be difficult to even see what that is if you get comfortable working in male dominated environments...

i don't think male dominated environments (or female) are going to go away. simply because the evidence points to the fact that the more freedom you give to people to express themselves, and choose careers, the more the inate gender differences come to the fore and dominate the statistics.

the best way to get women into STEM is to be a 3rd world country with terrible human rights policies.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#63

Post by elevensies » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 1:11 AM UTC

minopret wrote: post #5

> has anybody with legal and/or HR credentials and some ethical sense written any definitive guide what is OK and what is not specifically in the context of the modern office? Yes, they have. I am NOT one of them. I don't have one of those guides. But I've received enough mandatory training to have a layperson's understanding of the baseline in my national jurisdiction which is USA. The baseline is twofold, it is fai…

I think this is a good rubric, for things you can control.

There can also be things that are way outside your control, that are almost guaranteed to cause serious/widespread feels. For example:

1. a co-worked is very attracted to you, and can't take a hint. Your continued romantic rejection will certainly inflict pain.

2. you exchange fluids with someone (totally unrelated to work) and then later discover that it is someone's recent ex and they are going to find out, and they're really not going to like it.

3. Your boss is in love with you and decreasingly able to hide it.

......

These are situation you can't solve, but you also can't do nothing.

- talk to a someone about it at work. ideally someone with authority, who knows the people involved. just casually, so you aren't kicking off a big process, but so that they can see what is happening before that negative feelings that are being generated metastasise into something more serious.

- gossip ... hold your nose and address it. if you don't it will slowly become accepted fact.

- communicate rejection clearly

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#64

Post by mvarner » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 1:40 AM UTC

trhway wrote: post #13

mvarner wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, there's a difference between looking at someone because they're talking or you're engaging in the meeting with them and staring directly at their boobs. I've been in situations where people are obviously gawping at me and it's incredibly uncomfortable and it's a much, much different experience than when they're idly looking around a conference room because they're bored.

> I've been in situations where people are obviously gawping at me and it's incredibly uncomfortable and it's a much, much different experience than when they're idly looking around a conference room because they're bored. it is your internal interpretation. It may be true or may be not. The point here is that actions - specifically eyes movements - of one persons are supposed to be judged based on interpretation by…

The particular instance I was thinking of when writing my response was pretty blatant! I was around 15 or 16, and sitting on a public bench at the university I was taking classes at. A man sat down at an adjacent bench. He was literally turning his head 90 degrees to stare at me for minutes at a time, and whenever I would make eye contact he would immediately look straight ahead. He started inching towards my bench. I inched away. He tried to talk to me, and I politely excused myself and went to go study somewhere else.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#65

Post by jheriko » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 1:41 AM UTC

gbog wrote: post #31

loumf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter if you are attracted to them or their gender and it doesn't matter if they are offended. Having a calendar of models in swimsuits is not going to fly. The rule must be something else. But, honestly, if you think you might not understand where the line is, get a cat poster and be done with it.

Looks weird to me that a swimsuit poster on my desk is not ok but deep hypnotizing cleavage and ten meters radius feminine perfume is.

both are wrong.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#66

Post by mqsoh » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 1:46 AM UTC

You should try your best. If you fail, and you make someone uncomfortable, then everything that happens after that is based on your reaction to being informed of it.

Do you think the other person is full of shit? that they're out to get you? That there's far too much coddling of women and minorities in the world today?

Or are you honestly trying to do the right thing?

Here's two examples. Wadhwa met his criticism by saying that over sensitive feminists are hurting themselves and other women, that they're out to get him and stuff about slander.

That ESA engineer with the South Park t-shirt made an honest apology and probably made a lot of new friends.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#67

Post by jheriko » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 1:55 AM UTC

Jemaclus wrote: post #42

jchrome wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a tough one. It's hard because there's nothing "apples to apples" with a male. If some girl stared at my chest, I really couldn't care less. Now, if a girl made me uncomfortable in some way because of some advance or because she was staring uncomfortable at me in some way, I would let her know.

Sure, but you're approaching this from a male perspective of "I'd tell them to stop." That's just not realistic for a woman. If you're a woman, how do you say "Stop looking at my boobs" without negative consequences? Unless she can prove that the guy was leering, as a woman it could be detrimental to her career to speak up. In many cases the man will justify that he was just looking around, like another comment on th…

i'm sorry, but i think this is BS. why is it that men are allowed to do this and women not? equal rights and opportunities only work to solve this problem if exercised.

men have negative consequences from confrontation too... its just unfortunate that they are often raised in a way that makes them more comfortable to make that trade off and deal with the consequences than women ('being a man about it')

few things are more universally supported in today's world than a woman asking for a man to not sexually harass her. if she loses her job over this there will be a queue of lawyers waiting to take the case to tribunal for an easy paycheque...

telling men not to stare at boobs does make them feel bad, and it should, its how they learn their lesson. if nobody tells them, nothing changes.

should men have to champion this cause? isn't that just even more belittling to women, as if they are somehow ill equipped to assert their rights?

if its some important customer its different. in those cases /everyone/ has to put up with all kinds of crap to do their job. this is professionalism in its original sense (not to be confused with wearing smart clothes to work), again, we shouldn't lower the bar for women... that's demeaning too imo.

one last thing. why is it the male perspective to stand up for yourself and hold your own? i.e. to tell them to stop? isn't this sexism? even more so, isn't this one of those little things that allows the outrageous to happen?

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#68

Post by gbog » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 1:56 AM UTC

pekk wrote: post #34

gbog wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks weird to me that a swimsuit poster on my desk is not ok but deep hypnotizing cleavage and ten meters radius feminine perfume is.

Do you feel that you are sexually harassed if there are women in the workplace who are not wearing hijab?

If women are wearing hijabs, it looks like society consider all males as wild beasts unable to restrain their pulsions.

If women in the workplace, on ads, everywhere, are all looking like (or trying to look like) 16yo half-naked barbies, it looks like society is placing sexual desire above everything else. If, moreover, males are forbidden to look at them, you have the US, a kind of kafkaian nightmare.

Thankfully in most other parts of the world, women dress normally, and usually the way they want to dress. They can be attractive without being punished. They can also walk alone in the streets, do their stuff in their usual outfit, without fearing of being assaulted or being ashamed. Men can be attracted by women without being punished, but men who have a wife do not have to look at or try to not look at big-tits-in-a-cleavage all day. Just the normal way. The two countries I know the most (France and China) are like that.

[edited a few typos]

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#69

Post by nameless1234 » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 4:15 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #53

Jemaclus wrote: post #2

I was talking to one of my best friends who also happens to be a coworker the other day, and I said "Hey, if you're ever a victim of sexual harassment, what can I do to make you feel comfortable with coming to me so that I can attempt to help?" She said "Nothing, really. The problem is that most harassment isn't blatant, it is hidden and not obvious. It's like a feeling that you get from someone. I can't tell you how…

Not the same thing (I'm a guy) but a manager of mine had a great solution to a similar situation. I once had a coworker that said a lot of gross things: racist stuff, creepy sexual stuff, etc. Went on for a while. I told my manager, without naming the other coworker. My manager sent a memo to the department reminding them about the fact that there were often guests in our area and that we needed to be careful about j…

(throwaway account)

I really, really dislike this method. If there's a problem employee, deal with that employee. Don't send blanket emails to everyone. It (in my experience) does not work since the person that's actually doing something offensive usually doesn't realize it, and it just confuses all other people working into wondering if they somehow are to blame.

This tactic seems to be really common where I work, and all it seems to lead to is confusion and anger with management because they're unclear. It's as if everyone is being lectured for something one person did.

If I've said something inappropriate, please let me know. If not, leave me out of it so I don't have to worry that I might have. This stuff creates a lot of unneeded stress. It's one of the reasons I'm looking for a new job. Seriously.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#70

Post by Frondo » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 4:35 AM UTC

powertower wrote: post #55

Frondo wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the lady says people are staring at her boobs, why are you dismissing it with a wave of "internal interpretation"? Why wouldn't you take her at her word?

Why would he take her at her word? To have diversity we have to have more than the white-knight (that takes all accusations made by females at face value). I've often glanced and looked downwards when talking to someone (or standing close to someone) for a few seconds at a time - just like 100% of us that don't continually stare people in the eyes like a crazy person. I'm sure that a "lady" that reports that people a…

I think your bias is showing in your choice of words--"white knight" is never used (outside fairy tales) as anything but a pejorative.

And I'm all for taking everyone at their word until it seems suspect for some reason. Why not?

But the broad pattern you see in web chats like these is, a woman says something (e.g. the kind of thing that could make men feel badly, if they realize they've been making people uncomfortable through their actions), and invariably one or more men step in to tell her how she's wrong about it, no, that's not how it went at all....when these men weren't there, have no skin in the game, and these remarks are just more of some "women aren't to be trusted or listened to" general pattern.

Does everyone do it? No, of course not. Does it happen all the time? No, of course not.

Does it happen enough that we now have a pejorative dedicated to men who listen to and believe women's stories first, and are skeptical later? Yes, you used it: white knight.