I worked for a small company in Europe selling software into much larger companies. I am pleased to say that over four years, there were only a couple of times when I think we lost a sale because of corrupt tactics by a competitor and even then, I can't be sure. Certainly, we sold a fair amount of software and didn't have to bribe anyone. These were small deal sizes though, less than ~$50k and I think corruption probably gets more prevalent with larger deals. Certainly I have seen much more questionable behavior in other businesses such as consulting and outsourcing which is why I wouldn't want to spend my days selling those kinds of services.
Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?
61–70 of 72 posts
Re: Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
Glad to hear that. Sometimes these situations are ambiguous, and confusing. In some cultures, this would be a normal part of doing business and it's commonly accepted. In some places, you can even claim these 'bribes' against tax...! Generally it comes down to being comfortable with your choices, and ensuring that everything you do is completely legal. If you need to invest $1,000-$2,000 for a lawyer to write a legal…
I've lived in 'some culture' for years and I can say that 1) yes, there are situations where you can account for bribes in your taxes but 2) it's still never normal or accepted. I've never been in the situation where there was the illusion that what was talking place was ok. It's dirty, cloak and dagger (making gifts or payments is always an exercise in creativity) and heads generally roll if it's exposed.
Money spent for corruption was tax deductable in Germany until a few years ago. Though only when you used it on a non-German or outside Germany or so. The reason ran along the lines of `Everyone else is doing it, so we just level the playing field for German companies.' I am glad this hypocrisy ended.
Re: Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?
#63A contrasting approach - when Mo Ibrahim set up a mobile network in African counties he knew a no-bribe approach wouldn't fly, so bribes were limited $30,000.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/feb/01/mo-ibrahi...
Re: Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Isn't he better off just walking away from this (and yes OP: forget the sale)? Per his own account here, he (a) discussed potential issues with "hiding" the kickback, and (b) tentatively agreed to discuss the possibility with his "by the book" partner. I am not questioning your righteous outrage here, but this is a can of worms if there ever was one. And I'm just guessing that the sleaze ball in DC acted that way bec…
Just to clarify, I did not "discuss" potential issues with hiding a kickback. When I mentioned that his employer may not allow his "consulting" with us, he rattled off a bunch of ways he could hide it and I responded by asking him to check the legality of it. To any sane person the message that I did not want to do this would have been obvious. The fact that he ignored it tells me that he thought he could bulldoze me…
It sounds like you did the best you could after being hit with a pretty big curve ball.
Had this happened to me, I think I would have approached it by saying something to the effect of "Look buddy, we're a small outfit, we couldn't really do things this way even if we wanted to. How you usually manage your affairs is none of my business, but I think it would be best for us both if we just forget this conversation ever happened." End of story. So still a firm "no" but also indicating that I'm not interested in making trouble and just wish to be left alone. In this kind of situation, sure there's the question of the greater good not being addressed (i.e. he can go on being corrupt), but sorry, the good of me and mine comes first. There will be corrupt people around for as long as there are people around.
But if I were to find myself in the position you're in now where it seems the guy still may harbour some ambitions that he may still have an in with you, on the one hand I wouldn't really want to keep interacting with this guy because the more I would it kind of feels like it could be construed later on as some form of collusion. But at the same time I would be very careful about exposing him before getting legal advice, because who knows if this guy might go all vindictive and try to take you down with him. From what you've said, it seems like it would be yours and your partner's word against his, two witnesses on your side is better than one I guess, but these "his word against yours" kind of things seem to have a way of sometimes getting very messy if they ever hit a court room. I'd be looking to avoid that possibility.
Get some senior legal advice ASAP! Fuck the greater good, do what's best for you and your partner! Good luck with it!
P.S. I do also think though that there's a difference between supplying a bribe and buying a client a coffee or something. The latter and things like it can be part of building a relationship and there's nothing wrong with that. You just need to make sure that this kind of thing stays at a certain reasonable level.
Re: Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?
#65Running an IT service business for 7 years, I've run into a number of dubious situations. Heres a couple. A client introduced me to a salesperson who works for a competitor company. We sat down for coffee, and his opening line was that he has a million dollars of deals in the pipeline (which would have been a very welcome addition to the bottom line), and he was interested in bringing all these customers to my busine…
> The salesperson was not the most moral of people, but he had a family to support, and it's very difficult to find a job in this down-market.
It seems to me that the salesperson already had a job, before he decided to act blatantly disloyally to his employer.
Re: Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've lived in 'some culture' for years and I can say that 1) yes, there are situations where you can account for bribes in your taxes but 2) it's still never normal or accepted. I've never been in the situation where there was the illusion that what was talking place was ok. It's dirty, cloak and dagger (making gifts or payments is always an exercise in creativity) and heads generally roll if it's exposed.
Money spent for corruption was tax deductable in Germany until a few years ago. Though only when you used it on a non-German or outside Germany or so. The reason ran along the lines of `Everyone else is doing it, so we just level the playing field for German companies.' I am glad this hypocrisy ended.
The U.S. was one of the first nations to make it illegal for its own citizens to pay bribes overseas with the 1977 Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. The bill passed even though the US knew we'd lose business overseas. It was also very steady U.S. pressure that helped move Europe to do the same a couple decades later-- this was on the top of the U.S. trade agenda with Europe for a long time.
Re: Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Don't screw around. You've described yourself as the sole witness the commission of a serious crime. Passivity and/or trying to resolve this "politely" in back channels can bite you by making you an accomplice. If it really was as bad as you describe - your next call should be to the FBI and you should prepare for that by writing down every detail you remember, as carefully and accurately as you can.
I am going to write it down. I will have to think a lot and come to an agreement with my partner before I can decide to talk non-anonymously to the authorities. I do appreciate your advice on this.
You can talk anonymously to the authorities. They may not be able to do much but at least they can keep an eye on the guy. There is an organization called the Office of Special Investigations. They handle this kind of stuff. Letting them know the activity exists might be enough to get them to open an investigation and watch the guy.
Re: Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?
#68A contrasting approach - when Mo Ibrahim set up a mobile network in African counties he knew a no-bribe approach wouldn't fly, so bribes were limited $30,000. http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/feb/01/mo-ibrahi...
I didn't read it that way, I read it that because he set things up in the way he did, "Effectively, no one could now pay a bribe."
Re: Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do the country a service and stand up for what is right. You may lose this sale, but you will have your honor and integrity.
Let's outlaw corporate lobbying before we worry about some small-fry with a few-thousand dollar software contract.
Lobbying is very different than corruption. Lobbyists, in theory, are supposed to present the case and frame issues so that politicians can make informed decisions.
Re: Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?
#70Running an IT service business for 7 years, I've run into a number of dubious situations. Heres a couple. A client introduced me to a salesperson who works for a competitor company. We sat down for coffee, and his opening line was that he has a million dollars of deals in the pipeline (which would have been a very welcome addition to the bottom line), and he was interested in bringing all these customers to my busine…
Your mentor was spot-on in his recommendation in the first situation, IMO.