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Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

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Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#61

Post by j45 »

There are multiple ways to get to engagement of users for outcomes.

If your goal is keeping them spinning, there's ways that were discovered to do that. If you can get people to their outcome in a similar fashion, that might be sufficient.

Instead of calm, you might just be after focus, as in calm focus.

Is your solution about you, or them?

Are the usage statistics you're after based on vanity metrics, or outcome metrics?

I would find how you solve the user's outcome, and then support that journey with the appropriate tools. Tactics will come and go, and users will become immune to them.

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#62

Post by siva7 »

karpovv-boris wrote: post #5

Could we say that Anki is a non-gamified app for learning?

Anki had always the problem of being difficult to figure out how to use it effectively for learning. It's like C++. A million ways to shoot yourself in the foot if you use it wrong.

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#63

Post by veqq »

Uehreka wrote: post #13

Not doing subscriptions for an app that has ongoing server costs is going to bite you, you may want to reconsider that. Your biggest issue is going to be that language learning for adults is largely an unsolved problem. I know people with 1000+ day streaks on Duolingo who are nonetheless not fluent, and from everything I’ve read, it seems clear that spaced-repetition techniques are not sufficient (and possibly not ne…

It is a solved problem, Assimil or Michel Thomas (in person) have been making people conversational within a week of dedicated study. Plenty of language learners have reached C2 in 6+ languages including me. But it's not fun and certainly not appable (and these apps never offer anything beyond flashcards)"appable".

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#64

Post by econ »

dvt wrote: post #53
carabiner wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's solved, look up comprehensible input: https://www.dreaming.com/blog-posts/what-is-comprehensible-i... The problem is duolingo is particularly horrible and is intended to get people addicted, not educate.

I'm always a bit weary of theoretical stuff like this. The best way to learn a new language is to move there (preferably somewhere where people don't speak or don't want to speak your native language). I know people that didn't speak a lick of Spanish, moved to Spain, and in a year they're basically fluent. Of course, still struggling with stuff they might not be used to: gendered language, conjugations, and so on. B…

Go there, learn to talk then take classes there. You might not be able to speak better than the natives you can learn to grammar harder.

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#65

Post by codegeek »

I have worked in edtech industry for 10+ years now. Every time the word "gamification" comes up in a conversation (with users, customers, internet posts), it reminds me of the quote from the great Charlie Munger "Show me the incentive, and I'll show you the outcome". Basically, gamification is supposed to incentivize the learner but a majority of training/learnings are unfortunately mostly about "checking a box" especially when it comes to required/regulated trainings (I mostly work with customers in these areas).

So if you are building a learning app where learning is forced on the learner by someone else (their boss, employer, parent etc), then gamification won't be of any real use. No one will care if they just unlocked some imaginary points.

On the other hand, my kids love learning in apps like Duolingo where they are proud of the "streak" they have for continuous number of days. But here is the thing. No one asked them to learn this stuff. They got interested (by watching a friend etc) and now they are playing the same game.

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#66

Post by drakonka »

ngokevin wrote: post #59

As someone who spent 2+ years building one, I would turn away now if you're looking for traction or sustainability ( https://couplingcafe.com ). Though I don't regret it and learned enough to speak to my in-laws. My retention numbers are decent, but I just haven't done the marketing bit yet, and am currently taking a break. Language learning apps are the ultimate sand-pit for solo developers thinking they can offer s…

Aside from the challenges you mentioned I just want to say that this looks really cool, and at first glance looks like a great way to also just bond with your partner while learning.

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#67

Post by Hammershaft »

bisonbear wrote: post #45
fragmede wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while I'm wary of sprinkling AI magic fairy dust on top of everything, the fact that ChatGPT voice mode and the app is fluent in many languages, an interesting conversational partner for the immersion aspect.

I've been exploring the "AI as conversation partner for immersion" use case for a project I'm building and find it pretty helpful for a few reasons 1. Effectively infinite engaging comprehensible input at your level 2. Fantastic way to practice new vocabulary and grammar patterns (AI can provide correction for mistakes) 3. Somewhat fun - if you view chat as a choose your own adventure, the experience becomes more int…

I just opened chatGPT's voice mode and mocked the worse accented english I could muster asking for tips on pronunciation.

chatGPT just told me that my pronunciation was perfect over an over. It's transcribing audio into text and has no sense for details needed to improve conversational skills.

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#68

Post by arjie »

The Pimsleur apps are not gamified for the most part and the Mandarin teaching is good enough that my in-laws are happy when I speak with them. I don't think I would get any other tool. The gamified apps are not useful to me, and a new calm app is not interesting.

As someone who has paid for language learning applications many times in the past, let me be categorical: I am not interested in what you are selling. I hope that helps inform your product direction.

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#69

Post by carabiner »

dvt wrote: post #53
carabiner wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's solved, look up comprehensible input: https://www.dreaming.com/blog-posts/what-is-comprehensible-i... The problem is duolingo is particularly horrible and is intended to get people addicted, not educate.

I'm always a bit weary of theoretical stuff like this. The best way to learn a new language is to move there (preferably somewhere where people don't speak or don't want to speak your native language). I know people that didn't speak a lick of Spanish, moved to Spain, and in a year they're basically fluent. Of course, still struggling with stuff they might not be used to: gendered language, conjugations, and so on. B…

It's so strange to hear you and GP talking as if no one has ever learned a foreign language without moving to another country. The US military has been teaching translators for decades at the Defense Language Institute in California, and people learn languages to conversational fluency in university, albeit inefficiently. Duolingo is a game meant to be fun and collect subscription fees, not designed to teach any useful skill.

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#70

Post by SirensOfTitan »

I’ve been working on a product for a little while that Ivan Illich would call a “convivial tool,” one that doesn’t take from the user but makes them more effective, independent, and creative from its use. I’ve been interested in these kinds of tools for a long time, but I feel some sense of urgency in the LLM era, where I’ve already seen peers lose their edge by offloading the cognitive work.

I’ve been interested in these kinds of tools for a while, that actually act as a bicycle for the mind. Most apps forgo the metacognitive and emotional labor that actually helps people learn effectively in favor of gamification because 1. Modeling these skills is hard 2. The first step to building effective learning habits is to restore the so-called “learn drive” which is the love of learning, play, and tinkering that underlies most effective learning and gamification does so but on an artificial level.

There is so much content out there, and a sufficiently motivated person will find it and make meaning out of it. Most people are not motivated and don’t know how to motivate, meander, explore without gritting teeth, and I think you’ll probably just see churn without gamification unless you deal with that side of the process.

Since I've tried to ship such tools before and ultimately failed, I’m explicitly not doing the whole SV fail fast and iterate thing here: I’m meandering, taking my time, letting motivation move me when it strikes versus going for the easiest or most obvious thing.

(also sorry if this is itself meandering: I’m lifting while typing this on my phone)

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